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	<title>Comments on: Neff: Tuning up the gay rights movement</title>
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	<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/</link>
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		<title>By: soundtracks</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-3/#comment-68696</link>
		<dc:creator>soundtracks</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 17 Jul 2009 11:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-68696</guid>
		<description>+1</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>+1</p>
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		<title>By: interested</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-3/#comment-61969</link>
		<dc:creator>interested</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 10:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61969</guid>
		<description>Thank you Lisa, I have been trying to convince people of this point for a while now.

By publicly cedeing the entirety of the religious debate to the conservatives we allow the impression to exist that there is only one religious opinion on these matters (and that the only religious rights needing protection are those of the conservatives). People need to be taught that there is religious debate surrounding these issues and that merely viewing themselves as &quot;religious&quot; doesn&#039;t automatically determine how they should feel, or provide an excuse for their actions.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you Lisa, I have been trying to convince people of this point for a while now.</p>
<p>By publicly cedeing the entirety of the religious debate to the conservatives we allow the impression to exist that there is only one religious opinion on these matters (and that the only religious rights needing protection are those of the conservatives). People need to be taught that there is religious debate surrounding these issues and that merely viewing themselves as &#8220;religious&#8221; doesn&#8217;t automatically determine how they should feel, or provide an excuse for their actions.</p>
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		<title>By: Nikki Cross</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61964</link>
		<dc:creator>Nikki Cross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 11 Jun 2009 06:54:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61964</guid>
		<description>I think its sad that the Catholic Church chooses to exclude the fact that there have ALWAYS been marriages between two men and two women! In fact, two Catholic Saints were gay men who were legally married under the Catholic Church. Too bad they&#039;ve forgotten about Sergius and Bacchus, because they&#039;re giving up Saints to deny other people rights, and I don&#039;t think they realize that it&#039;s an abomination.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think its sad that the Catholic Church chooses to exclude the fact that there have ALWAYS been marriages between two men and two women! In fact, two Catholic Saints were gay men who were legally married under the Catholic Church. Too bad they&#8217;ve forgotten about Sergius and Bacchus, because they&#8217;re giving up Saints to deny other people rights, and I don&#8217;t think they realize that it&#8217;s an abomination.</p>
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		<title>By: Mickey</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61640</link>
		<dc:creator>Mickey</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61640</guid>
		<description>Why not let all the religious,straight people be &quot;joined in Holy Matrimony&quot; and let gay people get married?
After all,it&#039;s the religious zealots who say that gays are trying to change the
definition of marriage.
Why not let them change it and we&#039;ll all win!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why not let all the religious,straight people be &#8220;joined in Holy Matrimony&#8221; and let gay people get married?<br />
After all,it&#8217;s the religious zealots who say that gays are trying to change the<br />
definition of marriage.<br />
Why not let them change it and we&#8217;ll all win!</p>
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		<title>By: brad anderson</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61617</link>
		<dc:creator>brad anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61617</guid>
		<description>having read your column,ms.neff, I
find your relegeous arguments specious
at best, fallacious at best.  Are you going to tell me that should gay marriage
become the law of the land, and federal laws get passed that oulaw all discrimination against gays and lesbians
that there won&#039;t be gay activists filing
lawsuits against pastors ,priests, ministers, etc. that refuse to marry them?  Of course there will be.  The 
reasoning behind the lawsuits will be:
how can gays and lesbians be totally 
equal with heterosexuals if they can&#039;t
be married wherever heterosexuals can?
Bottom line? you and your fellow 
activists can give us all the assurances
you want, but I know better.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>having read your column,ms.neff, I<br />
find your relegeous arguments specious<br />
at best, fallacious at best.  Are you going to tell me that should gay marriage<br />
become the law of the land, and federal laws get passed that oulaw all discrimination against gays and lesbians<br />
that there won&#8217;t be gay activists filing<br />
lawsuits against pastors ,priests, ministers, etc. that refuse to marry them?  Of course there will be.  The<br />
reasoning behind the lawsuits will be:<br />
how can gays and lesbians be totally<br />
equal with heterosexuals if they can&#8217;t<br />
be married wherever heterosexuals can?<br />
Bottom line? you and your fellow<br />
activists can give us all the assurances<br />
you want, but I know better.</p>
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		<title>By: Isaac</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61602</link>
		<dc:creator>Isaac</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 10 Jun 2009 01:55:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61602</guid>
		<description>And here is the crux of the problem:

“From the beginning of human memory, marriage has always been understood as the union of one man and one woman,” Cardinal Adam Maida said in a video distributed to parishes prior to the vote. “Let us do our part here in Michigan to preserve that sacred understanding and definition of marriage.”

Christian-based religious groups persist in spreading this myth.  There is no doubt that Christians and other religious groups have co-opted the concept of marriage to restrict it to a union between a man and a woman, but marriage in its original form was never intended to be so.

Marriage was originally a property contract in which a man took OWNERSHIP of a woman or women for purposes including procreation and domestic slavery.  I know Christians have a fondness for rewriting history, but they&#039;re really taking the piss now.

Since Christians adopted the concept of marriage and integrated it into their faith, the union has NORMALLY been between a man and a woman, though some Christian faiths have in the past, and continue to, supported polygamous unions.  However, I will accept that the Christian concept of marriage is a &quot;sacred union&quot; and will allow them to restrict their brand of marriage to between a man and a woman.

However, they do not have the right to claim dominion over marriage.  They can set their rules for the followers of their faith and their followers only, not for the rest of us.

Religious opposition does not require a religious response, particularly when the religious opposition has no moral, legal or rational foundation.  Marriage does not belong to Christians or any other religious group.  Simple as that.

Bugger arguing with them.  They have taken something that does not belong to them.  It is time for us to take it back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And here is the crux of the problem:</p>
<p>“From the beginning of human memory, marriage has always been understood as the union of one man and one woman,” Cardinal Adam Maida said in a video distributed to parishes prior to the vote. “Let us do our part here in Michigan to preserve that sacred understanding and definition of marriage.”</p>
<p>Christian-based religious groups persist in spreading this myth.  There is no doubt that Christians and other religious groups have co-opted the concept of marriage to restrict it to a union between a man and a woman, but marriage in its original form was never intended to be so.</p>
<p>Marriage was originally a property contract in which a man took OWNERSHIP of a woman or women for purposes including procreation and domestic slavery.  I know Christians have a fondness for rewriting history, but they&#8217;re really taking the piss now.</p>
<p>Since Christians adopted the concept of marriage and integrated it into their faith, the union has NORMALLY been between a man and a woman, though some Christian faiths have in the past, and continue to, supported polygamous unions.  However, I will accept that the Christian concept of marriage is a &#8220;sacred union&#8221; and will allow them to restrict their brand of marriage to between a man and a woman.</p>
<p>However, they do not have the right to claim dominion over marriage.  They can set their rules for the followers of their faith and their followers only, not for the rest of us.</p>
<p>Religious opposition does not require a religious response, particularly when the religious opposition has no moral, legal or rational foundation.  Marriage does not belong to Christians or any other religious group.  Simple as that.</p>
<p>Bugger arguing with them.  They have taken something that does not belong to them.  It is time for us to take it back.</p>
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		<title>By: Linda</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61566</link>
		<dc:creator>Linda</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:51:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61566</guid>
		<description>Civil unions should be the vehicle for bestowing legal rights to couples, regardless of their sexual identity.  Marriages should be a ceremony performed by a religious institution that does not grant any legal rights.  That is the ONLY answer!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Civil unions should be the vehicle for bestowing legal rights to couples, regardless of their sexual identity.  Marriages should be a ceremony performed by a religious institution that does not grant any legal rights.  That is the ONLY answer!!</p>
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		<title>By: LOrion</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61561</link>
		<dc:creator>LOrion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 22:45:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61561</guid>
		<description>GO VERMONTER: You so have it right!

&quot;There is no sound reason to simply ignore these interpretations and cede the ground to uber-conservative Christians. It’s about time they heard what the Bible REALLY says about homosexuality.

Religious bigotry is the basis of ALL the anti-gay rants and ramblings of the Right. We have the tools, so let’s take them on. Religion should be on OUR side in this debate. Let’s tell them why.&quot;

Get Bishop Gene...and HRC&#039;s faith group...and give them $$$$ to make them loud, Louder, LOUDEST... if possible.

Especially because to &#039;devout&#039; Christians their &#039;FAITH Values&#039; 
DO mean more than Equal Rights for ALL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GO VERMONTER: You so have it right!</p>
<p>&#8220;There is no sound reason to simply ignore these interpretations and cede the ground to uber-conservative Christians. It’s about time they heard what the Bible REALLY says about homosexuality.</p>
<p>Religious bigotry is the basis of ALL the anti-gay rants and ramblings of the Right. We have the tools, so let’s take them on. Religion should be on OUR side in this debate. Let’s tell them why.&#8221;</p>
<p>Get Bishop Gene&#8230;and HRC&#8217;s faith group&#8230;and give them $$$$ to make them loud, Louder, LOUDEST&#8230; if possible.</p>
<p>Especially because to &#8216;devout&#8217; Christians their &#8216;FAITH Values&#8217;<br />
DO mean more than Equal Rights for ALL.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61524</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:06:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61524</guid>
		<description>&quot;This is called Christian love??&quot;

Yes, it&#039;s viewed as being &#039;tough love&#039;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;This is called Christian love??&#8221;</p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s viewed as being &#8216;tough love&#8217;.</p>
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		<title>By: Todd</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/neff-tuning-up-the-gay-rights-movement/comment-page-2/#comment-61523</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:05:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7879#comment-61523</guid>
		<description>&quot;I recall a lesson from Genesis on equality&quot;

Nah, if you look in the Bible the idea of equality doesn&#039;t really exist.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;I recall a lesson from Genesis on equality&#8221;</p>
<p>Nah, if you look in the Bible the idea of equality doesn&#8217;t really exist.</p>
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