Some great insightful stuff you have been
posting. Thanks much

Brad.

I do read blogs I’ll admit I don’t get to all I like to tho.

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But, I have never heard christians advocate doing to gays, and lesbians, what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, etc.

Here’s a concept, Brad: Try reading blogs.

I’m not surprised that there are people defending Corvino. It’s unfortunate there’s no full disclosure rule in effect otherwise certain individuals would have had to disclose that they’re as complicit as Mr. Corvino for the success of the anti-gay business.
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I’ll take a closer look on stuff you mentioned.

Brad.
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“Even James Dobson who is really anti-gay, I doubt would come out with such a idea.”

Uh, yes he did.

In the 80’s, James Dobson, Jerry Falwell, Beverly and Tim LaHaye, RJ Rushdooney, Phyllis Schlafly and members of the “moral majority” did.

And keep in mind that Dobson and most other fundamentalist “christians” use the BS quack anti-gay propaganda by Paul Cameron – which includes extermination of gay people.

As I’ve said before, leave Gandhi out of this. Gandhi hated gay people as well, and he’s of no use to me. Just like those who preach “be like Gandhi” are of no use to me.
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BRAD HALL said:

(snip)

“But, I have never heard christians advocate doing to gays, and lesbians, what the Nazi’s did to the Jews, etc. There are a few with very extreme views. But, to go out, and advocate mass extermination of gays, etc in general, no fundamentalist christian would dream of going that far. Even James Dobson who is really anti-gay, I doubt would come out with such a idea.

Denying gays, and lesbians certain rights yes. But, mass genocide no. Out of the whole fundamentalist movement, I might say .01% of people might feel that way.”

A few observations:

You obviously have never read the manifestos of the Dominionist or the Christian Reconstructionist movements, and/or the writings of Rushdooney.

Google Larry Kramer +Cooper Union speech.

Within the past week or so, the Baptist preacher husband of Rep. Sally Kern in Oklahoma called for the forced incarceration and “re-education” of GLBT people.

Just exactly how far do you think THAT is from, “Oops! Forgot to give them food or water or medical care?”

I wouldn’t be at ALL surprised if the next big Reich Wing political campaign will be to re-criminalize sodomy.

“The BIBLE says EXECUTE homosexuals.”

“America is a CHRISTIAN country.”

“We must obey the BIBLE, or God will forsake America.”

Who do you think is responsible for the escalating spiral of anti-gay violence in the US?

“Hate the sin, love the sinner” is an effing JOKE.

And THAT’S where Dr. Corvino is deluding himself. What’s-His-Name doesn’t love you as a friend. He wants to CONVERT you.

I wouldn’t knowingly sit in the same RESTAURANT with an employee of F**k US and OUR Families.

Dr. Corvino, do you have ANY conception of the DAMAGE that obscenely well-funded collection of hateful bigots has DONE to the GLBT community, especially to confused teens?

And then there was that creepy suggestion by Dobson that dads should take their pre-pubescent boys into the shower with them so they can see that Daddy has a peen just like theirs, only bigger (!).

WTF???!!!

Dobson also advocates beating the PISS out of children as a method of child-rearing.

Glenn Stanton AIDS, ABETS, and CONDONES those things as long as he works for Dobson.

And, BTW, I don’t have ANY straight friends who don’t accept me as a gay man married to my same-sex partner. Those who DIDN’T are no longer my friends, if they were in the first place.

Bud Burgoon-Clark
San Diego CA USA
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Thanks for your point of view, and the info. I’ll read the articles, etc that you mentioned. I’m not afraid to stand corrected on stuff. Sorry it took so long to look at, and reply to your post.

Rev Ken – very well said and I hope they print it. You make a point that I’ve tried to make in several different threads now – that if we are to embrace freedom of religion as a fundamental right, as most people, including myself, believe we should, we must also interpret that right to mean freedom FROM religion.

That doesn’t just mean the freedom to NOT worship, it also means freedom from religious law and persecution.

There are arguments against gay marriage and other gay rights issues that don’t involve religion, but most of them fall flat on their faces when challenged. The only arguments that stand their ground are those based on religious doctrine.

Now, I support the right of every person to live their lives according to their faith, but it is completely possible to do so without imposing that faith on others. If you believe that homosexuality is wrong, don’t enter into a relationship, or have sexual relations with, a member of the same sex. If you believe that same-sex marriage is wrong, don’t marry someone of the same sex. However, don’t impose your beliefs on others.

A number of people have claimed that it is the duty of all Christians to impose their values on others. It isn’t. The only duty prescribed to Christians in the Bible, with regard to others, is spreading the word of God – and as long as others are free to choose if and when they listen, I have no objection to that.

However, some Christians have decided that the Bible instructs them to force people to believe as they do, to judge and condemn “sinners”, to impose their values on the rest of the world. I have yet to find the section in the Bible where this “instruction” is given, only various sections that can only be deliberately misinterpreted to instruct as such.

Regardless, if we are free to follow whatever faith we choose, the laws of society must reflect that by NOT imposing the laws of one religion on the rest of society. Even if every religion on the planet condemned homosexuality, freedom of religion must mean freedom FROM religion, and thus when considering the issue of gay marriage and gay rights society must set aside any religious arguments.

And you are also right when you say Christians need to stop condemning and start loving. The core message of the Bible is one of love, but all we seem to see from Christians these days is hatred or ambivalence. Those who show love are in the minority, and that is sad not only for the rest of society, but also for Christians everywhere.

I sincerely hope your words are published and heeded.

“Up for Debate” by Glenn Stanton in the January 2009 issue of Christianity Today reads like Archie Bunker bragging about his friendship with Lionel Jefferson. They do not have a level playing field. For Glenn, this is a discussion, but for John Corvino, it is his life.

Glenn makes no sense. He argues that marriage is defined by whom it excludes, and tells John, “you cannot enter into a certain civil contract, no matter how badly you need it, because it has the same name as a ceremony in my church, for which you would be ineligible if you were a member, but you are not.” The issue is not marriage, the church institution, but marriage, the civil contract. They are separate, because the state cannot confer a sacrament. There are people who can get married at the courthouse whom the Catholic Church would not consider married, for example.

I do not see why any group of citizens should have diminished rights and protections in civil law because of the rules of a church to which they do not belong, even if it is my church. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 5:12-13 that we cannot apply our church discipline to nonmembers. If we set religious criteria for civil institutions, which church should make the rules? What about those churches who disagree?

I would like to hear less about the “rights” of Christians to harm others and more about our duties to benefit them.