Comments on: Corvino: Coming out skeptical http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/ The daily news source for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community Thu, 18 Mar 2010 21:19:36 -0400 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Julien http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-10/#comment-77354 Julien Wed, 18 Nov 2009 23:09:33 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-77354 Isaac, are you INSANE? gosh, do you even know what it's like to be atheist? or do you just take everything that seriously? If you do, i truly feel sorry for you. i know so many people that don't care that I'm gay, but i make one comment on not believing in god, and some people just seem to explode. Your looking too much on the past. sure, our struggles as gays are not over, but people don't Stone us to death these days. Proof: i know a very wealthy 38 year-old man who lives in Languedoc-Roussillon, France with his 26 year-old husband and his son (not a biological son) every year they get to visit Spain. Oh, sounds like such a horrible life! he must be in so much PAIN. pffft, don't just assume that every gay has a tough life. Isaac, are you INSANE? gosh, do you even know what it’s like to be atheist? or do you just take everything that seriously? If you do, i truly feel sorry for you. i know so many people that don’t care that I’m gay, but i make one comment on not believing in god, and some people just seem to explode. Your looking too much on the past. sure, our struggles as gays are not over, but people don’t Stone us to death these days. Proof: i know a very wealthy 38 year-old man who lives in Languedoc-Roussillon, France with his 26 year-old husband and his son (not a biological son) every year they get to visit Spain. Oh, sounds like such a horrible life! he must be in so much PAIN. pffft, don’t just assume that every gay has a tough life.

]]> By: Rob http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-10/#comment-64821 Rob Thu, 25 Jun 2009 01:36:07 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64821 Kerry Said: "Isaac is an ignorant fool and I have no reason to explain myself." And yet still you do...strange... Let me be clear about my bias right from the start. Isaac is my partner and he and I have been together for eight years. His attitude is not just born from his experience, but from mine, though out of respect for my privacy he did not mention it. Like Isaac, I am gay and an atheist. I came out as an atheist first, back when I was living in the Bible Belt, and I can certainly attest to how hard it was. I was called names, pushed over in the hallways at school, thrown out of a local diner the moment I walked in and was told that I was not welcome in the homes of friends and family I'd known all my life. Then I was outed as gay. How it happened doesn't matter, but suffice it to say that the bullying stepped up several notches after that. And the reason Isaac feels as strongly as he does? Because he knows that bullying culminated in me being attacked at school, forced into an empty classroom and raped first with a broom handle and then by two of my classmates. So don't go calling him an ignorant fool. He may be a fool in your opinion, but his foolishness is certainly not based in ignorance. It is based on the very real knowledge that while prejudice against atheists may be widespread, prejudice against gays is often more violent. Now, you and everyone else here can continue calling Isaac, and me if you so desire, all the names under the sun if you want. Isaac bowed out of this debate several days ago and hasn't looked at it since. I made the mistake of glancing at it today, but will not make that mistake again. So come on - call us all the names you want. I guarantee we've been called worse, and at least here we have the luxury of ignoring you. Sarrellec Said: "Hi Isaac: Kind of depends on what part of the US you’re in and how you define “trouble”. In the south, you can lose your job, not be promoted, have your home/property vandalized, face organized scholarly abuse at schools resulting in lower grades or even being forced to leave the school–that kind of thing, for being an out atheist. Granted, I don’t think there are the physical attacks on atheists these days that still continue for gays, but in the less extreme consequences, one can still get into serious trouble by proclaiming one is an out atheist." Hi Sarrellec: I'm sorry Isaac won't be responding, or reading, your comments, because I know he would have appreciated your viewpoint. And agreed with it. His point was not that atheists don't face prejudice, or that they aren't the victims of discrimination or abuse, but merely that on the whole gays suffer more violent abuse and, unlike atheists, gays are denied basic rights. I know full well the discrimination atheists face, which is why I moved as far away from my hometown as I could as soon as I could. And now I face no discrimination because of my religious beliefs, but some, on occasion, because of my sexuality. The point is, you will encounter varying degrees of discrimination against atheists all over the country, just as you will face varying degrees of discrimination against gays all over the country, but in my experience the discrimination against gays is frequently more violent and hateful. Again, just my experience, but if some people genuinely feel that atheists are treated worse then perhaps one of them would like to start a 365atheist.com site? Or perhaps we can just agree that discrimination, in whatever form it takes, is wrong and drop the "mine is bigger than yours" attitude? Ultimately, however, I visit this site to keep abreast of issues facing the gay community, not atheists, which is why I fail to see why this issue is even relevant here and lack the interest to say anything more on the subject. Be well, keep smiling. Rob Kerry Said:

“Isaac is an ignorant fool and I have no reason to explain myself.”

And yet still you do…strange…

Let me be clear about my bias right from the start. Isaac is my partner and he and I have been together for eight years. His attitude is not just born from his experience, but from mine, though out of respect for my privacy he did not mention it.

Like Isaac, I am gay and an atheist. I came out as an atheist first, back when I was living in the Bible Belt, and I can certainly attest to how hard it was. I was called names, pushed over in the hallways at school, thrown out of a local diner the moment I walked in and was told that I was not welcome in the homes of friends and family I’d known all my life.

Then I was outed as gay. How it happened doesn’t matter, but suffice it to say that the bullying stepped up several notches after that. And the reason Isaac feels as strongly as he does? Because he knows that bullying culminated in me being attacked at school, forced into an empty classroom and raped first with a broom handle and then by two of my classmates.

So don’t go calling him an ignorant fool. He may be a fool in your opinion, but his foolishness is certainly not based in ignorance. It is based on the very real knowledge that while prejudice against atheists may be widespread, prejudice against gays is often more violent.

Now, you and everyone else here can continue calling Isaac, and me if you so desire, all the names under the sun if you want. Isaac bowed out of this debate several days ago and hasn’t looked at it since. I made the mistake of glancing at it today, but will not make that mistake again. So come on – call us all the names you want. I guarantee we’ve been called worse, and at least here we have the luxury of ignoring you.

Sarrellec Said:

“Hi Isaac:
Kind of depends on what part of the US you’re in and how you define “trouble”.
In the south, you can lose your job, not be promoted, have your home/property vandalized, face organized scholarly abuse at schools resulting in lower grades or even being forced to leave the school–that kind of thing, for being an out atheist.
Granted, I don’t think there are the physical attacks on atheists these days that still continue for gays, but in the less extreme consequences, one can still get into serious trouble by proclaiming one is an out atheist.”

Hi Sarrellec:

I’m sorry Isaac won’t be responding, or reading, your comments, because I know he would have appreciated your viewpoint. And agreed with it. His point was not that atheists don’t face prejudice, or that they aren’t the victims of discrimination or abuse, but merely that on the whole gays suffer more violent abuse and, unlike atheists, gays are denied basic rights. I know full well the discrimination atheists face, which is why I moved as far away from my hometown as I could as soon as I could. And now I face no discrimination because of my religious beliefs, but some, on occasion, because of my sexuality.

The point is, you will encounter varying degrees of discrimination against atheists all over the country, just as you will face varying degrees of discrimination against gays all over the country, but in my experience the discrimination against gays is frequently more violent and hateful.

Again, just my experience, but if some people genuinely feel that atheists are treated worse then perhaps one of them would like to start a 365atheist.com site? Or perhaps we can just agree that discrimination, in whatever form it takes, is wrong and drop the “mine is bigger than yours” attitude?

Ultimately, however, I visit this site to keep abreast of issues facing the gay community, not atheists, which is why I fail to see why this issue is even relevant here and lack the interest to say anything more on the subject.

Be well, keep smiling.

Rob

]]> By: Sarrellec http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-10/#comment-64785 Sarrellec Wed, 24 Jun 2009 22:11:11 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64785 Hi Isaac: Kind of depends on what part of the US you're in and how you define "trouble". In the south, you can lose your job, not be promoted, have your home/property vandalized, face organized scholarly abuse at schools resulting in lower grades or even being forced to leave the school--that kind of thing, for being an out atheist. Granted, I don't think there are the physical attacks on atheists these days that still continue for gays, but in the less extreme consequences, one can still get into serious trouble by proclaiming one is an out atheist. Hi Isaac:
Kind of depends on what part of the US you’re in and how you define “trouble”.
In the south, you can lose your job, not be promoted, have your home/property vandalized, face organized scholarly abuse at schools resulting in lower grades or even being forced to leave the school–that kind of thing, for being an out atheist.
Granted, I don’t think there are the physical attacks on atheists these days that still continue for gays, but in the less extreme consequences, one can still get into serious trouble by proclaiming one is an out atheist.

]]> By: Sarrellec http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-10/#comment-64779 Sarrellec Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:56:33 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64779 Kari. I have real knowledge of the history of Judaism Judaism is a protestant religion spawned by the failure of a group of people to successfully navigate the entirety of the Kabbalic system. Check your own babble book. Within the old testament God gives the Kabbalah to the Jews "from other (users)". (Still think I don't know much about Judaism?) If this is true, then the Kabbalah did not originate with the Jews, but was already in use by others. The "others" of course were the ancestors of my own people...known as "witches" today. We failed too. The difference is that the Jews proclaimed ownership of the Kabbalic system and that they alone had mastery of it. An outright lie, but hey, that's how the idea of lying about religion got started, isn't it? Conversely, my people realized that failing to navigate the entirety of the Kabbalic system just meant we needed to learn more and grow more and didn't have all the answers. Our purpose in our practice is to continue to seek knowledge, while the Jews simply decided they had all the knowledge necessary and attacked any other religion violently. See, Judaism didn't just spring full grown from the brow of Zuess or something. It gained power the same way religion has gained power ever since: At the point of a sword. You know so much about the history of Judaism, answer this: WHY or HOW did the Jews become the slaves of the Egyptians? The Egyptians just woke up one day and said, let us call all these people Jews and then enslave them? Nope. The Jews became slaves the same way most groups of people became slaves at that point in history. They lost a war. They attempted to impose the one-god (OUR GOD, which we alone understand and for whom WE are the special representatives, of course) for everyone whether they like it or not philosophy on the Egyptians through battle and they lost. Christianity is a protestant religion of Judaism. That is the link between the two. The Muslim religion is a protestant religion of Christianity. Therefore, in the present, the Judeo/Christian/Muslim reality are all connected through their protestant relitionship. So...I do blame both the Jews and the Christians for the genocide of my people by being caught in the middle of their insane and silly and destructive "Crusade" campaigns to capture some worthless piece of land in the middle of nowhere. The Jews BEGAN the concept of one god and one devil. The Jews violently attacked the Temples of the Olde Religion and BEGAN the horrific concept that homosexuality was a sin, as there were homosexual male and female clerics in those temples who invited practitioners to engage in sexual celebration of the Mother and the very act of physical joy. It was the Jews who BEGAN the concept, in protest, that sex was dirty and sinful, rather than a celebration of life and joy. So...seems I know a bit more about your religion than you do. It is, after all, the OLD TESTAMENT which identifies homosexuality as a sin and abomination before the god they created and imposed on others through warfare. You were saying...? Kari.
I have real knowledge of the history of Judaism
Judaism is a protestant religion spawned by the failure of a group of people to successfully navigate the entirety of the Kabbalic system.
Check your own babble book. Within the old testament God gives the Kabbalah to the Jews “from other (users)”.
(Still think I don’t know much about Judaism?)
If this is true, then the Kabbalah did not originate with the Jews, but was already in use by others.
The “others” of course were the ancestors of my own people…known as “witches” today.
We failed too.
The difference is that the Jews proclaimed ownership of the Kabbalic system and that they alone had mastery of it. An outright lie, but hey, that’s how the idea of lying about religion got started, isn’t it?
Conversely, my people realized that failing to navigate the entirety of the Kabbalic system just meant we needed to learn more and grow more and didn’t have all the answers. Our purpose in our practice is to continue to seek knowledge, while the Jews simply decided they had all the knowledge necessary and attacked any other religion violently.
See, Judaism didn’t just spring full grown from the brow of Zuess or something.
It gained power the same way religion has gained power ever since: At the point of a sword.
You know so much about the history of Judaism, answer this: WHY or HOW did the Jews become the slaves of the Egyptians?
The Egyptians just woke up one day and said, let us call all these people Jews and then enslave them?
Nope.
The Jews became slaves the same way most groups of people became slaves at that point in history.
They lost a war.
They attempted to impose the one-god (OUR GOD, which we alone understand and for whom WE are the special representatives, of course) for everyone whether they like it or not philosophy on the Egyptians through battle and they lost.
Christianity is a protestant religion of Judaism. That is the link between the two.
The Muslim religion is a protestant religion of Christianity.
Therefore, in the present, the Judeo/Christian/Muslim reality are all connected through their protestant relitionship.
So…I do blame both the Jews and the Christians for the genocide of my people by being caught in the middle of their insane and silly and destructive “Crusade” campaigns to capture some worthless piece of land in the middle of nowhere.
The Jews BEGAN the concept of one god and one devil. The Jews violently attacked the Temples of the Olde Religion and BEGAN the horrific concept that homosexuality was a sin, as there were homosexual male and female clerics in those temples who invited practitioners to engage in sexual celebration of the Mother and the very act of physical joy.
It was the Jews who BEGAN the concept, in protest, that sex was dirty and sinful, rather than a celebration of life and joy.
So…seems I know a bit more about your religion than you do.
It is, after all, the OLD TESTAMENT which identifies homosexuality as a sin and abomination before the god they created and imposed on others through warfare.
You were saying…?

]]> By: Kerry http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-10/#comment-64762 Kerry Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:21:59 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64762 Isaac is an ignorant fool and I have no reason to explain myself. I can see where you come from in this article. If Isaac opened his eyes for a minute he might be able to see passed the "Oh poor you" mind setting. Appearently someone doesn't realize that depending on location and whom you confront certain beliefs may be harder to accept. And the statement "How many people are routinely harrassed, beaten, insulted and threatened because they don't believe in god?" Well how would you know? It's not like the media is going to go out of their way to state "Non-believer maliciously beaten and hospitalized" And not many people who don't believe in god will preach or protest someone else's religious views. Think about what you wrote. Then regret it Isaac. Oh, and out of touch with the gay community? I'm not going to get started on this childish remark, you're no better than the very people that bully children into suicide because of their sexuality. Maybe you need to get in touch with the gay community. Isaac is an ignorant fool and I have no reason to explain myself. I can see where you come from in this article. If Isaac opened his eyes for a minute he might be able to see passed the “Oh poor you” mind setting.

Appearently someone doesn’t realize that depending on location and whom you confront certain beliefs may be harder to accept. And the statement “How many people are routinely harrassed, beaten, insulted and threatened because they don’t believe in god?” Well how would you know? It’s not like the media is going to go out of their way to state “Non-believer maliciously beaten and hospitalized” And not many people who don’t believe in god will preach or protest someone else’s religious views.

Think about what you wrote. Then regret it Isaac.

Oh, and out of touch with the gay community? I’m not going to get started on this childish remark, you’re no better than the very people that bully children into suicide because of their sexuality.

Maybe you need to get in touch with the gay community.

]]> By: J. Bruce Wilcox http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-10/#comment-64749 J. Bruce Wilcox Wed, 24 Jun 2009 21:06:36 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64749 Frankly: If you get this send me a private email- I'd like to know where you are and more about your condition. Also- Marc- I'd like to talk with you privately as well. jbwilcox@jbrucewilcox.com Frankly: If you get this send me a private email- I’d like to know where you are and more about your condition. Also- Marc- I’d like to talk with you privately as well.

jbwilcox@jbrucewilcox.com

]]> By: Frank Terry http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-9/#comment-64635 Frank Terry Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:47:39 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64635 This is my favorite quote: "The fact is that more people have been slaughtered in the name of religion than for any other single reason. That, my friends, is true perversion.." Harvey Milk I think that about sums it up for me! This is my favorite quote:
“The fact is that more people have been slaughtered in the name of religion than for any other single reason. That, my friends, is true perversion..” Harvey Milk
I think that about sums it up for me!

]]> By: Frankly http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-9/#comment-64543 Frankly Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:13:19 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64543 J Bruce: I am sorry. I shouldn't have assumed. And as to my diatribe, sometimes I get down and scared. And I will tell you this, if you every tell a guy that you have had a tumor, they run away so fast you can't even see them. I think it is more difficult to come out as a person with a condition. J Bruce: I am sorry. I shouldn’t have assumed. And as to my diatribe, sometimes I get down and scared.

And I will tell you this, if you every tell a guy that you have had a tumor, they run away so fast you can’t even see them. I think it is more difficult to come out as a person with a condition.

]]> By: Brian Story http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-9/#comment-64373 Brian Story Tue, 23 Jun 2009 05:34:09 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64373 I too am a gay athiest, and I find your column to hit the nail right on the head. I would go further to say our society, indeed our Christian society, has created the gay or homosexual identity and thus being gay--whether some consider you a sinner or not--is not outside the realm of religious reality. It may be hard for religious people to accept gays, but being gay doesn't exist as a challenge to the faith of another. However athiesm, or the assertion that one is athiest, is a direct challenge to the validity of religion. If a person were to ask you to explain why--as you did a little here--you would have to cast doubt on many religious assumptions. I think we are more of a Christian nation than a Straight nation in that sense. But to understand this one also has to question the validity of an identity--gay or homosexual--that was created to describe what we do by religious people. I too am a gay athiest, and I find your column to hit the nail right on the head. I would go further to say our society, indeed our Christian society, has created the gay or homosexual identity and thus being gay–whether some consider you a sinner or not–is not outside the realm of religious reality. It may be hard for religious people to accept gays, but being gay doesn’t exist as a challenge to the faith of another.

However athiesm, or the assertion that one is athiest, is a direct challenge to the validity of religion. If a person were to ask you to explain why–as you did a little here–you would have to cast doubt on many religious assumptions.

I think we are more of a Christian nation than a Straight nation in that sense. But to understand this one also has to question the validity of an identity–gay or homosexual–that was created to describe what we do by religious people.

]]> By: Jaron Blake http://www.365gay.com/opinion/corvino-coming-out-skeptical/comment-page-9/#comment-64264 Jaron Blake Mon, 22 Jun 2009 16:44:26 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=8138#comment-64264 Thank you, Michael. I too have found that being an atheist can be harder than being out as gay. The "HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO KNOW" attitude toward my atheism strikes me as absurd. The ones who "presume to know" are the religious who have adopted answers based on "faith" rather than science. I acknowledge that religions occasionally do some good ("do unto others", etc.), but ANY philosophy based on superstition - by definition - encourages the suspension of logic, and that's not something that is good in guiding a society. Thank you, Michael. I too have found that being an atheist can be harder than being out as gay. The “HOW DARE YOU PRESUME TO KNOW” attitude toward my atheism strikes me as absurd. The ones who “presume to know” are the religious who have adopted answers based on “faith” rather than science. I acknowledge that religions occasionally do some good (“do unto others”, etc.), but ANY philosophy based on superstition – by definition – encourages the suspension of logic, and that’s not something that is good in guiding a society.

]]>