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Loading ...Besen: Prop 8 and race
I can understand why white gay people are angry. I certainly am.
But let’s take a step back and look at this dispassionately. I believe our failure with the African American vote (70 percent voted in favor of Prop. 
has more to do with education levels than race. In general, people with lower levels of education – of any race – do not vote for gay rights. White people are twice as likely to graduate college as black people. This accounts for the difference by race on Prop. 8.
Uneducated people – black, white and Hispanic – often derive their power from physical strength. They perceive being gay as weak and antithetical to real manhood. By voicing support for gay rights, they lose status and often fear rivals may perceive them as gay. The easiest way to gain status is dissing faggots. I see this attitude all the time in Brooklyn – in the gym and on the basketball court, where I often play. (Not the best sample, I realize this)
Meanwhile, educated people of all races gain power by outsmarting opponents – not beating them up. This creates a safe space to support gay rights and not lose social status. (Unfortunately, the fact that the conservative black church is a central organizing point for politics makes even educated blacks less likely to vote for gay rights. But, this is secondary to education levels.)
It is understandable that black support for anti-gay efforts drives white gay people nuts. It is difficult to understand how people affected by bigotry can promote bigotry – as if they are selfish people who learned all the wrong lessons from the civil rights movement. But, remember, uneducated people – of all races – are not students of history. They react to the environment around them, which often rewards homophobia.
(Compounding this perception problem is that the vast majority of overt homophobia experienced by urban gays comes from black people. In places like New York City, you almost never hear a white person say “faggot”. But, we hear this from uneducated blacks too often. This makes the problem seem worse than it is. We often forget that we moved to places like New York to escape uneducated whites in rural areas that were just as openly homophobic. In other words – it is about education – not race.)
A few of possible solutions to ponder:
1) We must air public service announcements with people like former basketball star Charles Barkley – who is a tough guy and supporter of same-sex marriage. We must show masculine African American figures who are supportive, every chance we get. Obama is also a huge help, because he is inclusive and is the ultimate example of power though academic success. His leadership will improve our fate.
2) We must work to raise the education levels of all Americans – which will lead to less homophobia of all races. The fact that we have so many African Americans in prison – and not graduating is a legacy of racism and a national disgrace. This must change.
3) We must also have substantive discussion with the African American community – as many of you have suggested. But, until we raise education levels, there is only so much we can do to win support of urban blacks – or rural whites. In other words, scholarships for urban blacks and rural whites are as effective as spending money on education specifically about gay rights. Keep this in mind.
4) While I recognize that there are many supportive pro-gay black churches, as long as this is the central organizing place for black politics, this is not helpful for gay rights. Alternative organizing places for aspiring black leaders must be strengthened.
These are my thoughts….I’m certainly open to your ideas and especially your criticism of my theory, as I am most concerned in figuring out how to succeed in the future.
This is special pleading. Education and prejudice are not mutually exclusive. On the contrary.
Fundamentalist religion does not make people prejudiced: prejudiced people are drawn to and reinforce fundamentalist religion.
If Christians had voted to deprive Jews of their right to marry … the outrage would be volcanic.
Where is the outrage from leaders in the black community? There is none because none of them are outraged. Hypocrites.
Reality: most straights hate most gays. Is hate too strong a word? Then try resentment rooted in jealousy: that gays enjoy sexual pleasure without the risks of unwanted children (reality: most parents both love and resent their children). Our presence makes them uncomfortable because our existence reminds them of their prejudice.
Gays and lesbians in the U.S. need to become radicalized. Fast. It took thirty years of hardball (in the courts and on the streets) for Canada to recognize same-sex marriage. You need to play hardball. You are too polite and too deferential.
I was elated at the election of Obama. Now I am cynical. Change? Not really. One marginalized group gets to enjoy the smug satisfaction of depriving another marginalized group of their right to marry. It must make them feel really swell.
White gays need to build bridges with black gays. Not with the black community itself but with gays within the black community.
And get radicalized. Seriously radicalized.
I am not only angry, but in shock that the black community in large part voted to take away the equal civil rights of another minority.
Black civil rights leaders should be held accountable for this trampling of civil equality.
I for one am boycotting any black cab drivers, black businesses, or any other ways possible.
This vote by the black community is nation wide, and not a California anomaly.
Their hip hip music, constantly demeans, threatens and even advocates murdering gay people, whither in the Caribbean, especially Jamaica, or here in the United States.
This is the last straw, gay people are the second largest spending group in the United states, lets start using that clout. I will not buy any black music any longer, i will not benefit any group that discriminates against gay people, enough is enough.
I find this essay patronizing. It is not a lack of education but a fullness of bible thumping that is at work. Barack Obama failed to be a leader in this. To say I think marriage is between a man and a woman but I oppose Prop. 8 is the mother of all mixed messages. I am hoping for better from him.
DONT COME HERE AND PREACH THE BIBLE OR ANY RELIGION AND TALK TO ME ABOUT MY RIGHTS. FUCK OFF!
We can go to Church (any church) if we want to. Thats not being defensive that is being PISSED OFF and Over you, your bible, your preachers, your ministers, etc. who don’t pay one damn tax or bill of mine!
That is the problem right there, you want to like the Religious, Hypicritical Right. Always want to be telling people what to believe in! AMERICA is SUPPOSE to BE “Seperation of Religion and State” PERIOD… that should not be that hard for ANYONE to understand! Either you get it or you dont. IF someone can get their little pee-on brain around that, then the rest should be simple! Also, If this country is suppose to be a country of “Religious Freedoms” then that means a TRUE American can believe in whatever religion or NOT that he or she choses to believe, However, that does NOT give them the right to just shit on the others because their beliefs, etc. are different!
My religion HAPPENS to Believe in Being Gay and Married and Leaving others alone, but some people don’t seem to get it…
So good for you, you open the bible after 9′11, but don’t defend your co bible believers actions if you TRULY believe in Seperation of Religion and state.
FOR Those that think we should live by the bible, sure, fine. So get rid of Prostitution, Casinos, Alcohol, Start Stoning Adulters, Stone women who have sex before marriage. Make women cover their hair and walk 10 feet behind men, etc…. So dont give me BIBLE unless you gonna follow ALL the laws, Rules and bullshit in there!
And for the guy who stated about “vilifying” church, people. Too Bad, Too Late, they don’t SEE ME so they can Vilify ME? Don’t Think So…. Most ppl. I know say they can’t stand “the gays that flaunt it” So that means they DO SEE YOU@ and you know what they Hate US! and out of their hate that they share with their big relgious groups like “Focus On the Family” and go look at the Knights of Colombus Website…. Then rethink your “vilify” and “visibility” thoughts. See if they WANT to see you on TV or in their precious FAMILY ORIENTED, or “Shared Family Value” Neighborhoods!
I am angry and surprised too. I am a mexican, not inmigrant, but I feel ashamed and disgusted with the mexicans and latinos living in U.S.A. which voted proposition 8. I am a fan of MARTIN LUTHER KING, and I suported the rights of black people…. AND THIS IS HOW THEY PAY. But I think that the christian right used the inmigrants and black people to vote for homophobia, and in payment, they will be returned to their country, and the black people will be discriminated, as usual. I AM VERY ANGRY WITH THE LEGALIZATION OF HOMOPHOBIA IN CALIFORNIA BECAUSE I THINK THAT WE, THE GAY PEOPLE, ARE THE SAME PEOPLE, NO MATTER COLOR. I am with you, my solidarity is with you. Have a big hug from a Queer from Mexico. Start the resistance!
In my haste I misquoted some demographic figures for Orange County. To factcheck myself: OC is 64.76% White, 16.05% Asian,1.72% African American, 32.89% Hispanic as of 2006.
Wayne, while I agree that education is an important aspect, it’s not just about schooling. Take a look at the county breakdown.
http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-2008election-prop8prop22,0,333635.htmlstory
Orange County, which is mostly white and asian with a 0.7% black population, is one of our wealthiest and most educated counties. Prop 8 passed there by double digits! In fact, if you look at the county breakdown, it’s really only the Bay area that came through, and LA county did OK with a virtual tie. Those counties arguably have the largest gay populations, where people see openly gay citizens as just everyday people who deserve respect.
It’s not just about schooling, it’s about visibility, as others have said. Gays need to be out there, showing that they’re more than just the caricatures seen on TV and flamboyant pride parades. We need to humanize our cause more than we have, and we need to not be so quick to vilify wide swaths of people because of a church, or a region, or a skin color.
And I stand by my remarks on exit polling, especially when it’s just ONE poll. Scientifically, it’s just not sound methodology.
Don’t make excuses for them. In California you can go to community college for FREE. White people have been duped by the blacks. They preach tolerance – and practice hate. Ask a Latino that wants to buy a house in South Central how tolerant blacks are. As for the Latinos – they are almost as racist as the blacks. I’ll respect anyone who respects me, no matter what their race is. I can’t help feeling duped. Tolerance is simply a one way street in their case. Everyone is supposed to respect them, and if we don’t we’re called racists. At the same time, they practice racism and intolerance on anyone they can. Since the election, I can’t look at black people. I know there is a 70% chance they hate me. They voted to take my constitutional rights away from me. I have never done that to anyone, and never will. Wear your shame haters.
Wayne, if I may be so informal,
what about the very intelligent and well educated black man and our future president who believes that “seperate but equal” is fine for gay people because it says so in a jewish book of fables.
What example is he giving to the “uneducated” black people who voted for him in such large numbers, who you feel so sorry for. As for getting political organizing out of the “churches”: 1. good luck the IRS has no balls! 2. If the’re involved with a church like that their mind is poisoned already. Also while its true that blacks in NYC have a love affair with the word faggot, saying that whites almost never use it is far from true. Go to bensonhurst or the borough of Staten Island and you will hear it ten times more than in bedsty or harlem.
While all of your solutions are worhtwhile and admirable, they are long range and will produce minimal positive results in the short term(10 to 15 years) the full effect may not come for decades. Meanwhile, our people are being assaulted and murdered everyday. Do you think “seperate but equal” will help to halt this slaughter? I think not. The enemy has, is and always will be the theocratic sociopaths who control openly and overtly every phase of our government, subverting the civil rights of many, aiding, abetting and encouraging the murder and mayhem commited on gay citizens by the faithful everyday throughout the land of the free and the home of the brave. As for the supportive churches, I’ll say this: There were very, very few “good germans”, stupid, bigoted, blind, well meaning, selfserving, cowardly or scared shitless, but not blameless. Also, and you can take this to the bank, there were no jews in the SS! We are in a, pardon the pun, holy war with sociopaths who think their god’s laws, as only they can devine them, should be the law of our land, that we are a christian country, etc. etc. etc. ad nauseum!
So I guess my question is, how do you reason with a rabid dog? How can you trust it to follow thru on agreed upon actions if you could some how have a meaningful dialogue? Will we them have to sleep with one eye open and a gun under the blanket, waiting for the knock on the door that will take us away to the XGAY re-education camps or worse? Underestimating the resolve of our enemies is the first step to defeat and enslavement.
On a lighter note:
Under the “separete but equal” policy of our new president, I know I will have to:
1. drink from the “homosexuals only” water fountains.
2. use only the “homosexuals only” sections of all public accomodations and venues.
3. not have sexual contact or look lustfully at hetrosexuals
4. sit in the back of the bus!
My concern is the subway.Will the back of each car be homosexuals only or will the last car be the place to be? The last car is very far from the exit to my block and I’m not as young as I used to be!
I guess the LORD HIGH MAYOR MIKE will have to make that tough call and get his privy council, opps, I mean city council to vote on it. Can’t let the people make important decisions like that. Thanks for listening to an old queer rant. And remember – oppression comes in many forms and seemingly harmless guises and humor often speaks the truth more loudly and clearly than pious words!
This won’t please the radical right gays here who think Obama is Satan incarnate (as if McCain/Palin and the religious right are our friends):
http://www.advocate.com/news_detail_ektid65220.asp – Obama Consulted Three Times With Bishop Gene Robinson
Perhaps Gays and Lesbians need to quell their own ignorance before expecting other groups to do so. As a gay Christian, I of all people hope to see Gay Marriage legitimized. However, who is fighting this battle for civil rights in the area of marriage equality? When you ask Gays and Lesbians their reactions to relgious beliefs, many become defensive and shun religiosity, altogether.
It was 9/11 that caused me to open the Bible. By then, I had a college education. I was rather suprised by what I read. The story of Sodom was not about homosexuality, at all. In fact, the only sex I read about was that which occurred between Lott–the main character in the story–and his two virgin daughters–after being spared the fate of the city. Gay people need to first educate themselves, and learn how to fight fire with fire.
Wayne: I do not agree with your assumption that this is strictly about education level. As a comparison, you may wish to read some of the studies about anti-Semitism in the African American community. Granted, this is dated, but when I was a graduate student in 1990, I wrote a paper for one of my classes on anti-Semitism in America. The conventional wisdom was that as people became more education, levels of anti-Semitism decreased. Studies revealed that while this was true with whites, the exact opposite was true with blacks. The higher the education level, rates of anti-Semitism actually increased. I don’t recall all the reasons why and perhaps these studies may not be valid today, almost two decades later. Nevertheless, it is food for thought.
I for one am not going to play Mr. Politically Correct right now. I am angry. I am a white gay man who has spent much of his career in service to the African American community, primarily in Oakland, California. I voted for Obama and donated money to his campaign. As the African American community turned out in great numbers to vote for Obama, it overwhelmingly voted to take away our rights. And this isn’t the first time in recent history where the African American community has done this to another minority group. If you read your history, you will know that the Jewish community marched in solidarity with Martin Luther King, Jr. The Jewish community heavily supported the NAACP. Of any white subgroup in the USA, it was the Jewish community that consistently stood by and supported the African American civil rights movement. Yet by the 70s, there was significant revolts against Jewish supporters and the Jewish community by African Americans. Read a little about the school board issues, the protests against Jewish teachers in largely black schools, etc.
I will not be an apologist for this unacceptable behavior. Lack of education is not the simple answer. There is a larger problem here. The full extent of it I do not claim to fully understand. But again, I’m fed up and not really interested in hearing any more apologist PC explanations!
Let me just say there is alot I disagree with in this article as a gay black man, however I will say that all gay people need to understand that Black people deep down believe that gay people don’t exist…that we should not be seen nor heard, it doesnt mean that we need to change them…Show them we do exist by not hiding, and that we wish them no harm and in tine they will change themselves….Our responsibility is to be visible…
Marty, who is this “we” who have been so supportive of the blacks civil rights and equality for many years you speak of? Do you mean gay white men…like the ones making post here? Are all gay white men of one voice like you claim the Black community? No gay white racist? Really? Really?
So, you feel betrayed by %70 of blacks. Is this just CA blacks, all blacks in the country, in the world? Who are these black leaders? I see that your expertise in black history is just as strong as your knowledge of black culture. Their failure to teach their own people to respect other minoritiess fundemental rights goes for gays educating themselves about race and homophobia. You have a wonderful way of speaking of your bigorty and blaming the other side. “Their own people” was my favourite racsist line. But still no solutions just more bigorty!
We had been very supportive of the blacks’
civil rights and equalities for many
years. Very unfortunately that “70% of blacks voting” has changed my opinion of blacks severely. I do not think I will have any motivation to vote for a black candidate any more in future. I felt very much betrayed by the 70% of blacks. The black leaders are going to see that the behaviors of “70% of the blacks” will be transformed into one of the severe political liabilities for a long time. It is their failures to teach their own people to respect other minorities’ fundamental rights and different religious beliefs.