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	<title>Comments on: Besen: Is NY backtracking on gay marriage?</title>
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		<title>By: karl</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-34219</link>
		<dc:creator>karl</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 08 Dec 2008 08:38:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-34219</guid>
		<description>find out more at www.gayvolt.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>find out more at <a href="http://www.gayvolt.com" rel="nofollow">http://www.gayvolt.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Brad</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33908</link>
		<dc:creator>Brad</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 15:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33908</guid>
		<description>The Democratic majority in the New York State Senate is by the thinest margin possible 32-30 and very wobbly given the the disloyalty of certain New York City State Senators.  

Ruben Diaz, Sr. (Democratic Party State Senator from the Bronx) is strongly homophobic and has worked against the equality endeavors of GLBT persons.  

Mr. Diaz, somewhat of an &quot;oddball&quot; in the Democratic party is peculiar in his views opposing legal abortion and civil rights for gay people.  He is largely under the influence of fanatical &quot;religious&quot; notions.  

I think the issue is not only electing Democrats into office in Albany, but also making it known to them that our support for them is conditional to their support for us.

In addition, the &quot;bad apples&quot; like Ruben Diaz, Sr. need to be weeded out so they do not spoil the bunch.  I would have expected better from New York City.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Democratic majority in the New York State Senate is by the thinest margin possible 32-30 and very wobbly given the the disloyalty of certain New York City State Senators.  </p>
<p>Ruben Diaz, Sr. (Democratic Party State Senator from the Bronx) is strongly homophobic and has worked against the equality endeavors of GLBT persons.  </p>
<p>Mr. Diaz, somewhat of an &#8220;oddball&#8221; in the Democratic party is peculiar in his views opposing legal abortion and civil rights for gay people.  He is largely under the influence of fanatical &#8220;religious&#8221; notions.  </p>
<p>I think the issue is not only electing Democrats into office in Albany, but also making it known to them that our support for them is conditional to their support for us.</p>
<p>In addition, the &#8220;bad apples&#8221; like Ruben Diaz, Sr. need to be weeded out so they do not spoil the bunch.  I would have expected better from New York City.</p>
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		<title>By: Wayn Besen</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33899</link>
		<dc:creator>Wayn Besen</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 13:51:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33899</guid>
		<description>&quot;jumped into the dialog about NY same-sex marriage without doing their homework.&quot;

I live in New York. The homework was done. Look, if you can&#039;t get the job done, move aside for people who can. I find it sad, that some gay people are so willing to be apologists and defeatists. They are so willing to be shills for the Democratic party. 

Sorry, but some of us hold the Democrats to same standards we do Republicans. If they don&#039;t act on our behalf they will be judged accordingly. No lame excuses.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;jumped into the dialog about NY same-sex marriage without doing their homework.&#8221;</p>
<p>I live in New York. The homework was done. Look, if you can&#8217;t get the job done, move aside for people who can. I find it sad, that some gay people are so willing to be apologists and defeatists. They are so willing to be shills for the Democratic party. </p>
<p>Sorry, but some of us hold the Democrats to same standards we do Republicans. If they don&#8217;t act on our behalf they will be judged accordingly. No lame excuses.</p>
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		<title>By: Patric</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33820</link>
		<dc:creator>Patric</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 05 Dec 2008 00:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33820</guid>
		<description>If Dems felt they had the votes to pass a marriage equality bill in this session, they might well introduce one.  Taking control of the chamber, as significant as that was, was not sufficient to ensure passage of an equality bill, as evidenced by the public comments of Ruben Diaz in the days following the election.

Also, the past four decades demonstrate the ability of one party, once it has the opportunity to gerrymander state senate districts, to keep an almost unshakeable grip on power for decades.  It is critical that Dems win the State Senate in the 2010 elections and, if they do, they will likely be able to shut Republicans out of control of the State Senate for decades, which will be a huge victory for gay equality and other progressive causes.  I&#039;m fine keeping marriage equality on the back-burner until after the 2010 elections.  If Dems retain the State Senate and the governorship in those elections, I&#039;m confident that a marriage equality bill will be passed and signed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If Dems felt they had the votes to pass a marriage equality bill in this session, they might well introduce one.  Taking control of the chamber, as significant as that was, was not sufficient to ensure passage of an equality bill, as evidenced by the public comments of Ruben Diaz in the days following the election.</p>
<p>Also, the past four decades demonstrate the ability of one party, once it has the opportunity to gerrymander state senate districts, to keep an almost unshakeable grip on power for decades.  It is critical that Dems win the State Senate in the 2010 elections and, if they do, they will likely be able to shut Republicans out of control of the State Senate for decades, which will be a huge victory for gay equality and other progressive causes.  I&#8217;m fine keeping marriage equality on the back-burner until after the 2010 elections.  If Dems retain the State Senate and the governorship in those elections, I&#8217;m confident that a marriage equality bill will be passed and signed.</p>
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		<title>By: pogovio</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33806</link>
		<dc:creator>pogovio</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 22:50:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33806</guid>
		<description>Some out-of-state commentators like Wayne Besen, Joe-My-God, etc., have recently jumped into the dialog about NY same-sex marriage without doing their homework. They are scolding about not pushing SSM without knowing that something much bigger is at stake.

Democrats have a 32-30 nominal majority in the state Senate. But it&#039;s virtually impossible for a Republican to win in Manhattan, Bronx, and Brooklyn. So some DINOs get elected. There are 3 big ones - One is an ordained minister who opposes all gay rights issues. Another was senator from another district before 2002, and he sat with the Republicans back then. He won this year with Republican backing, and with Democrats suing to try to stop him from running as a Democrat (they lost the case). The third is an anti-rent-control crusader who gets most of his money from Republicans, and who was the only Democrat to chair a committee in recent years while Republicans have been in control. These 3 will vote against SSM if it comes up, so we would lose 29-33.

So such a vote would just again display our inability to win, and would convince fence-sitters across the country that it&#039;s not the time to jump off onto our side.

But the real stakes are much higher than SSM. When the new Senate is seated in January, the head honcho will be determined not by the number of Democrats elected, but by how many vote for a new leader. Two of the 3 DINOs mentioned above still have a threat on the table that they will vote for a Republican for leader unless they get substantial bribes, including a promise by Democrats not to bring SSM to a vote. If this happens, there will be no change of leadership at all, the Republicans will continue to control the Senate as they have for the last 70 years. It&#039;s unfortunate, but the anti-gay DINOs hold the high cards in this session, and nothing can be done about it. Nothing but disaster can come from Democrats insisting on a SSM vote this term.

It&#039;s clear what needs to be done. Begin the campaign now to constantly expose these DINOs as traitors for the next 2 years, and then maybe they can be defeated in 2010. There&#039;s no guarantee even then - NYC is subject to notoriously corrupt machinations.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some out-of-state commentators like Wayne Besen, Joe-My-God, etc., have recently jumped into the dialog about NY same-sex marriage without doing their homework. They are scolding about not pushing SSM without knowing that something much bigger is at stake.</p>
<p>Democrats have a 32-30 nominal majority in the state Senate. But it&#8217;s virtually impossible for a Republican to win in Manhattan, Bronx, and Brooklyn. So some DINOs get elected. There are 3 big ones &#8211; One is an ordained minister who opposes all gay rights issues. Another was senator from another district before 2002, and he sat with the Republicans back then. He won this year with Republican backing, and with Democrats suing to try to stop him from running as a Democrat (they lost the case). The third is an anti-rent-control crusader who gets most of his money from Republicans, and who was the only Democrat to chair a committee in recent years while Republicans have been in control. These 3 will vote against SSM if it comes up, so we would lose 29-33.</p>
<p>So such a vote would just again display our inability to win, and would convince fence-sitters across the country that it&#8217;s not the time to jump off onto our side.</p>
<p>But the real stakes are much higher than SSM. When the new Senate is seated in January, the head honcho will be determined not by the number of Democrats elected, but by how many vote for a new leader. Two of the 3 DINOs mentioned above still have a threat on the table that they will vote for a Republican for leader unless they get substantial bribes, including a promise by Democrats not to bring SSM to a vote. If this happens, there will be no change of leadership at all, the Republicans will continue to control the Senate as they have for the last 70 years. It&#8217;s unfortunate, but the anti-gay DINOs hold the high cards in this session, and nothing can be done about it. Nothing but disaster can come from Democrats insisting on a SSM vote this term.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s clear what needs to be done. Begin the campaign now to constantly expose these DINOs as traitors for the next 2 years, and then maybe they can be defeated in 2010. There&#8217;s no guarantee even then &#8211; NYC is subject to notoriously corrupt machinations.</p>
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		<title>By: Warren</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33724</link>
		<dc:creator>Warren</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 15:11:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33724</guid>
		<description>That is why we need to be vocal/active, build a consensus and after that insist on performance by our representatives.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is why we need to be vocal/active, build a consensus and after that insist on performance by our representatives.</p>
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		<title>By: AW</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33717</link>
		<dc:creator>AW</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:44:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33717</guid>
		<description>&quot;If New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Connecticut all allow-same sex marriage in the near future, it will appear that the Northeast is well on its way to becoming a discrimination-free zone. The more marriages that occur, the less anti-gay forces can claim the apocalypse is coming. This can only help matters in California if the Proposition 8 fight is revisited on the ballot.&quot;

More importantly, for those of us in &quot;red states&quot; that already have passed anti-marriage amendments, it is crucial  for the long term strategy of having all of these amendments overturned at the federal level to have marriage equality in the the two largest states, NY and CA.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;If New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts and Connecticut all allow-same sex marriage in the near future, it will appear that the Northeast is well on its way to becoming a discrimination-free zone. The more marriages that occur, the less anti-gay forces can claim the apocalypse is coming. This can only help matters in California if the Proposition 8 fight is revisited on the ballot.&#8221;</p>
<p>More importantly, for those of us in &#8220;red states&#8221; that already have passed anti-marriage amendments, it is crucial  for the long term strategy of having all of these amendments overturned at the federal level to have marriage equality in the the two largest states, NY and CA.</p>
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		<title>By: tristram</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33713</link>
		<dc:creator>tristram</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:33:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33713</guid>
		<description>First, a party is not a candidate. It is not monolithic entity. Party leaders can make &quot;commitments,&quot; but anyone with a grain of sense has to understand that these are commitments to do their best. Without the votes of their caucus members, they can do no more. 

The author glosses over the fact that the deciding bloc of NY Dem senators apparently represent ethnic constituencies which have grievances against the party very similar to those of the lgbt community. Their constituents are also not friendly, in some cases they&#039;re hostile, to gays and gay rights. And no amount of gay huffing and puffing is going to scare these Senators about losing their seats.

More importantly, there has been one of these famous &#039;paradigm shifts&#039; which you appear not to have noticed. The NY senate situation is a direct and INEVITABLE result of the California debacle (compounded by devastating results in FL,AR and AZ). There are some politicians, Dem and Rep, who claim to be open-minded but harbor a residue of homophobia that&#039;s always looking for an excuse to surface. There are others who are quite genuinely open-minded, but tend to go the way the wind is blowing. What happened in CA (together with FL, AZ and AR) turned the wind against us from coast to coast. 

Everyone, from Obama to your city councilor is going to be wary of pushing gay-friendly measures of any sort. And in many states the theofascists are gearing up to try to take back adoption rights, employment and hate crimes protections and other recent lgbt gains. 

In the NY Senate situation, ethnic issues and religious prejudices appear to be outweighing party affiliation. It would be nice to think that a couple of Republican senators might opt for decency and equality and counterbalance the recalcitrant Dems. But I&#039;m not holding my breath for our LCR friends to make that announcement. 

And I don&#039;t see the advantage pushing for a vote we know we&#039;ll lose. Falling on one&#039;s sword is certainly a romantic concept. But in a world where perception often creates reality, we don&#039;t need to enhance the growing perception that we can&#039;t win &#039;democratically&#039; via the ballot box or legislation and are entirely dependent on judges to shove our rights down the throats (yeah, I know ) of an unfriendly majority of voters and elected reps.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First, a party is not a candidate. It is not monolithic entity. Party leaders can make &#8220;commitments,&#8221; but anyone with a grain of sense has to understand that these are commitments to do their best. Without the votes of their caucus members, they can do no more. </p>
<p>The author glosses over the fact that the deciding bloc of NY Dem senators apparently represent ethnic constituencies which have grievances against the party very similar to those of the lgbt community. Their constituents are also not friendly, in some cases they&#8217;re hostile, to gays and gay rights. And no amount of gay huffing and puffing is going to scare these Senators about losing their seats.</p>
<p>More importantly, there has been one of these famous &#8216;paradigm shifts&#8217; which you appear not to have noticed. The NY senate situation is a direct and INEVITABLE result of the California debacle (compounded by devastating results in FL,AR and AZ). There are some politicians, Dem and Rep, who claim to be open-minded but harbor a residue of homophobia that&#8217;s always looking for an excuse to surface. There are others who are quite genuinely open-minded, but tend to go the way the wind is blowing. What happened in CA (together with FL, AZ and AR) turned the wind against us from coast to coast. </p>
<p>Everyone, from Obama to your city councilor is going to be wary of pushing gay-friendly measures of any sort. And in many states the theofascists are gearing up to try to take back adoption rights, employment and hate crimes protections and other recent lgbt gains. </p>
<p>In the NY Senate situation, ethnic issues and religious prejudices appear to be outweighing party affiliation. It would be nice to think that a couple of Republican senators might opt for decency and equality and counterbalance the recalcitrant Dems. But I&#8217;m not holding my breath for our LCR friends to make that announcement. </p>
<p>And I don&#8217;t see the advantage pushing for a vote we know we&#8217;ll lose. Falling on one&#8217;s sword is certainly a romantic concept. But in a world where perception often creates reality, we don&#8217;t need to enhance the growing perception that we can&#8217;t win &#8216;democratically&#8217; via the ballot box or legislation and are entirely dependent on judges to shove our rights down the throats (yeah, I know ) of an unfriendly majority of voters and elected reps.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/opinion/besen-is-ny-backtracking-on-gay-marriage/comment-page-1/#comment-33708</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 04 Dec 2008 13:47:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4456#comment-33708</guid>
		<description>Representatives and Senators must know that LGBTs will not vote for them next election if they don&#039;t deliver on their promises.  It isn&#039;t enough for LGBTs to elect a friendly party.  We must have the courage and integrity to throw them out when they don&#039;t seriously deliver on our issues.  If it&#039;s not that important to us, it won&#039;t be that important to them.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Representatives and Senators must know that LGBTs will not vote for them next election if they don&#8217;t deliver on their promises.  It isn&#8217;t enough for LGBTs to elect a friendly party.  We must have the courage and integrity to throw them out when they don&#8217;t seriously deliver on our issues.  If it&#8217;s not that important to us, it won&#8217;t be that important to them.</p>
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