I was brought up a Catholic. My entire family is Catholic. The only member of my family to reject me since I came out is my father, and he didn’t reject me because of his religious beliefs but rather because he is a politician and is concerned how it would look to have a gay son. The rest of my family have been able to accept me, and the way they have done so is simple – they believe that my lifestyle is wrong, but they accept that it is my choice to make.

It’s my immortal soul and if I want to put it at risk, it is my choice to do so. As my aunt said, she doesn’t know if I’m going to Hell or not, she doesn’t presume to speak for God, but she accepts my right to live my life my own way.

OK, so it’s not the kind of wholehearted acceptance that many of us in the gay community crave, but it’s a lot better than you seem to get from most conservative religious groups.

The thing is, I’ve studied the beliefs of many of these groups and they *can* accept, or at least tolerate, homosexuality. They *can* accept the right of any individual to “sin”. They simply choose not to.

Now, some of them claim that it is their moral duty to try and save the souls of others, to educate them about their beliefs and avert them from the path of sin. I accept that. I have no problem listening to anyone who wants to discuss their beliefs with me, but that’s not what they do. They don’t attempt to save, they set out to persecute.

I will never condemn anyone for believing that homosexuality is wrong. I respect the right of every person to believe whatever they want. I will, however, condemn people for the practice of their beliefs where said practice harms others, where it infringes on the freedom of others, where it imposes on others.

*Can* conservative religions reconcile with gays? Absolutely, no question. *Will* conservative religions reconcile with gays? Only if they make a conscious choice to do so, and while their persecution tactics bring them followers and income they have no incentive to show the compassion required of their faith, only the hatred and persecution their religious text preach against.

You didn’t dismantle anything.

You forget you are arguing with someone who asserts that Marbury v Madison was unconstitutional.

So enjoy your overwhelmingly rich white male judges decisions.

Just like your rich white male apportioned human rights.

Like someone once said in a thread on gay.com, it doesn’t take long before a lie gets accepted as the truth.

I wasn’t defining a social law, nor do I need to… but that’s one suggestion for what they are, tom from breederwatch.com. Relevance?

American Theocracy was a good read, btw.

But, if I’m done how can I still type this?

Will the Submit button work now that I’m done?

Could it be we are in bizarro world where someone is NOT done until THEY decide it?

OMG I must be in America!!!!!!!

Tom, It’s a Thanksgiving MIRACLE!!!!

From here in Europe, this looks like a pretty flippant assessment of the religious climate. I’m always a bit surprised by the American assumption that Europeans are thorough-going sceptics and humanists. I can’t think of any European country where this is true. Germany seems to me to be, if anything, more deeply religious (on a cultural, rather than political level) than the US, and the Catholic Church retains a massive following in France, Spain, Poland, and Italy – not to mention the Orthodox nations of Eastern Europe. Indeed, it seems to me that the only nations in Europe where Christianity is floundering are those with an established church (England, Scotland, the Scandinavian nations), and – as you rightly point out – immigration is shifting the balance in many of these states towards Islam and other non-Christian religions.

The overwhelming trend in Europe is for moderate, largely apolitical (the Catholic Church in Italy and Spain being a partial exception) religious groups to dominate. If American society is gravitating towards more polarisation and greater religious extremism, I suspect that it is – as so often – bucking the global trend.

“Nothing I do has to conform to your pre-ordained needs.”

That is the only true statement in your reponse. And so much for that truth, huh? So very, precious little. Like most of your claims, it too is empty and expresses a self absorption that in my PERSONAL opinion find repugnant. You rebel you…

It’s bigger than you ,jeff. Much, much bigger. Try taking yourself out of it…you may find life more fulfilling if you do.