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Loading ...Besen: Can conservative religions reconcile with gays?
On Sunday, New York Times Columnist Nicholas Kristof discussed religious and cultural extremism in Pakistan, where a new cabinet member, Israr Ullah Zardari, defended the torture-murder of five women and girls who were buried alive (three girls wanted to choose their own husbands, and two women wanted to protect them.)
The Times had another article on Monday about an all-girl rock band in Saudi Arabia that is forbidden from playing live concerts because of their gender.At home, former Arkansas governor and pastor, Mike Huckabee, appeared on ABC’s “The View” and said that gay and lesbian equality was not the same as civil rights because homosexuals have not had their skulls cracked and were not hosed down by police. Apparently, he is unaware of the latest FBI hate crime statistics that show bias attacks based on sexual orientation making up 15.5 percent of all reported hate crimes.
In Rome, Pope Benedict XVI is being criticized this week for questioning the usefulness of Interfaith dialogue in a letter he wrote to Italian politician Marcello Pera. What the Pope fails to point out is that thanks to intransigent absolutists, like the pontiff, finding common ground is nearly impossible.
How can we expect interfaith dialogue when we can’t even have Interstate dialogue between two Mormon universities 45 miles apart because they have literally turned religion into a political football?
When the secular University of Utah played its religious school rival, Brigham Young University (BYU), last weekend, the teams treated the End Zone as if it were the Promised Land.
“It’s like a lot of other rivalries, except for those at the extremes,” Michael Anastasi, managing editor of the Salt Lake Tribune told the New York Times.”For them, it’s not only that your school is weak, you’re going to Hell too.”
Two years ago, the rivalry was further soured after BYU quarterback John Beck threw a touchdown pass to receiver Jonny Harline, who sank to his knees — as if in prayer — to make the winning catch. Describing the “miraculous” play, another B.Y.U. receiver, Austin Collie, concluded it occurred because students at the religious school lived cleaner lives.
“Obviously, if you do what’s right on and off the field, I think the Lord steps in and plays a part in it,” said Collie. (For the record, the holier-than-thou BYU was crushed 48-24 in this weekend’s game. I’m guessing the Lord was upset at Mormon involvement in California’s Prop. 8 banning same-sex marriages)
If religious groups become fratricidal based on football allegiance, it seems there is little hope for genuine reconciliation with gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. We must still work to enlighten the flock where we can, but fundamentalist leaders will only transform their anti-gay views when popular opinion decidedly turns against them — as it did with race relations in the 1960’s and 1970’s.
The strategy for the GLBT movement has been to circumvent the ideologues and create change within mainline denominations. I wholeheartedly support such efforts and have contributed to them. Unfortunately, there is scant evidence to suggest that these religious institutions will thrive and form a substantial bulwark against fundamentalism.
In “America Theocracy,” author Kevin Phillips documents the steep decline of reasonable religion in favor of the rabble-rousing variety.
“Between 1940 and 1985 mainline Protestantism’s share of all U.S. religious adherents was steadily plummeting…Between 1960 and 1997 — the Presbyterian Church, The Episcopal Church, The United Church of Christ and the Methodists lost between 500,000 and 2 million members each. In the meantime, the Southern Baptist Convention added 6 million, the Mormons 3.3 million, the Pentecostal Assemblies of God 2 million and the Church of God (Tennessee) some 600,000.”
The implications are that the GLBT movement may be placing its eggs in a basket that is rapidly fraying. It seems that people are either gravitating towards religious extremism or secular humanism, with little appetite for mainline faith. The Internet also offers easy access to eclectic spiritual beliefs that one can follow without organized religion. So, the hope that mainstream religion, as we know it, will supplant anti-gay denominations seems far-fetched.
The trends of urbanization and the discrediting of corporate Republican-style religion will lead, in my view, to more people losing their faith. However, fundamentalist sects will continue to consolidate market share for those who feel estranged or displaced by modernity. In other words, America will look much like Europe in the coming decades — with a secular majority and a small, but still vocal, fundamentalist minority. (Mostly Islamic in Europe)
I can hear objections from those who rightfully point out that America is more religious than Europe. But, Kevin Phillips reminds us that Europe was once was hyper-religious too — but circumstances change over time.
“As the 21st Century began,” writes Phillips. “None of the western countries in which Reformation Protestantism bred its radical or anarchic sects nearly five hundred years earlier — England, Scotland, Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands — still had congregations of any great magnitude adhering to that theology.”
And lest you think that it’s worthwhile to continue such a “dialogue”, I remind you that as soon as someone invokes the bible or asserts, “because god said so,” the conversation is over. The person has stopped thinking and listening.
The funny thing about this topic brought up has both an individualistic approach and a communal approach. In the individualistic approach, we can assume that there are people out there who are not extremists but still have faith in god. But when we look at it through a communal approach it gets to be quite complex, there is proof that we all think differently, and because of this, we get riots, protests, and to a higher extent, wars. But see in a life like this, we need to have these conflicts. Now im not jumping on their side, in fact im gay myself so im on the gay side. I dont like anti-gays, I would love to be in a world where there was no hate, but in a world like this, it has passed impossible. But see what im saying is, is that we need to have those people, the protesters, the haters, the anti-group people. Cause if we didnt, this world would be boring, it would be dull, and nothing interesting would ever happen.
with all due respect, child, my boredom isn’t worth the suffering of a single other, let alone countless others.
Why do you waste time pondering questions that have such clear and obvious answers? No. End of story. Get over it and move on. Religion hates sexuality. Period. Who cares if two mormon schools don’t talk and your football reference was retarded. You’re still an idiot. I pity your students.
If we undergo reparative therapy, accept Jesus in our hearts, get married and produce children to indoctrinate into their religion, give them money…then yes they will be happy to reconcile. If you are expecting them to climb down off their pedastle, renounce their hold jihad mandate from their “god” and meet us halfway…Wayne you’ve been around a while bro and I know the work you do. Do you really think people like Dobson will ever give up their means to wealth and power for any reason? Happy Thanksgiving to you and yours.
You’d have to be ‘tone deaf’ after Prop 8 to think that religious nutters would ever even give us the ‘right’ to breathe air voluntarily. No. We have to shove the thought that we are free and equal down their throats with all the vigor and menace we can muster.
Obama needs to sign another emancipation proclamation (a gay one)…after all the original one was simply a series of presidential executive orders.
A belief which leaves no place for doubt is not a belief; it’s a superstition.
I don’t understand why some people here have to bash other religions, especially the Roman Catholic church. I guess different people have different experiences and opinions with the Church but nevertheless, I wish everyone to understand that the Roman Catholic Church will not give up its absolute truths regarding moral and ethics because to do so would be doctrinal heresy. Get with it and MOVE ON. No matter how ecumenical or modern society gets, it will always condemn that which has always held true based on the bible and the teachings of the saints. I cannot speak for the other religions however but I’m pretty sure that they come close to maintaining their teaching as well. Having said that, homosexuals should really realize that reconciliation by any means to the Roman Catholic church IS impossible unless they renounce their lifestyle and sexuality—-something that I doubt homosexuals are willing to do in these modern times. Therefore, they should just move on and find a religious environment or community that will accept them for who they are and where they can be safe and comfortable without having difficulty to express who they are as a person. There isn’t just one religion in America and thats what homosexuals should aspire to understand in order to belong acceptance which will foster a religious bond.
I’m pretty sure that you are a White American for having said something that regarding religion. However, not all people share your opinion with regards to being ethically culpable by participating in their own faith. I am baptized Catholic first and foremost. That’s what comes first as far as my humanity and everything else—including my homosexuality which is totally secondary. Secondly, I do not consider it ethically culpable to follow my faith. It is my belief that this faith alone and not anything else has lead to my salvation and reconciliation with God. For you to question that because my lifestyle contradicts with the Church’s teachings is just a flaw thats present—not necessarily a barrier to my faith. Otherwise, I would have stopped attending church and stopped confessing my sins to a priest a long time ago. These practices are essential for a Roman Catholic and it is something that I don’t expect you or anyone else who is not Catholic to truly understand.
In spite of the fact that Lloyd Baltazar has somehow managed to reconcile his homosexuality with the Catholic Church’s doctrine, I can assure him that the Pope and the men who are in charge of the Catholic Church have not. Any money he gives to the Church will go ultimately to propagating the belief that he is a sinner and going to hell, or to pay for lawsuits from molested altar boys. If he’s puzzled why people seem to be critical of religion, he need only look at what religions are trying to do to the political landscape. Many religions, including Catholicism, Mormonism, Evangelical Christians, Orthodox Jews, Muslims –the list is endless — do not want to have privately-held views that homosexuals are sinners. Instead, they want to enshrine that view, with varying degrees of punishment, into state and federal law. It’s that religious attitude that is a discussion stopper, and leaves us with no common ground.
As a GAy man in California. I disagreed with all the protests from the Gay community. We already have all the rights that California as a State can offer. The phrase “marriage” is already taken, we have full rights as civil unions. We need to push other states for civil unions and the feds. But trying to take from another group a phrase that means something other than what we are doing is foolish. We are being used by the ACLU and other extremists. We are different, we are proud of it, why would we want to use a word that means something else? We are GAY! NOT MARRIED
Lloyd, Maybe you have never read any history, or just church approved history? You should look at what the catholic church has been up to for, oh, say the last two millenia. Then get back to me. What the church (and other offshoot forms of xtianity and other patriarchal, female-hating, gay-hating, freedom-hating,science-hating, propaganda-spewing religions) is experiencing is called karma. Someone you may have heard of is alleged to have said, “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you”, and “He who slayeth with the sword, with the sword shall he be slain”. The church sure could dish it out, but now they cant take it. The old paradigm is dying, and fundamentalism is the reaction of a faith to its loss of temporal power. You know, its never fun, but what goes around comes around. An institution that spent centuries burning gays at the stake (maybe you dont know but “faggot” is a bundle of reeds used to start a fire, and is applied to us because we were used as kindling for the fires of other “heretics” by the inquisition)is now seeing the “lowest of the low”, those it spent so much time and energy trying to utterly eliminate through any means possible, becoming full members of society. The churches and other authoritarian, patriarchal religions know this is their death-knell. It is also poetic justice, as karma tends to be. So what you call “attacking the church”, I simply see as its just rewards, for they have “slain with the sword”, and have not “treated others as they expect to be treated”, so I say, suck it up because you can’t escape karma. Pray we have more compassion toward your church than it has had toward us. You know, I haven’t seen any gays burning priests/preachers/rabbis/imams at the stake yet, so maybe your sense of victimhood and persecution is a little premature….
Religion deals with morality not ethics. Morality is immune to the situations, players, and information that it is applied and is done solely for itself; which is why many moral systems (not all are religious–e.g., chivalry) were designed to include supernatural punishments along with the draw of bells and whistles (miracle stories). Ethics is pursued to enrich one’s life, and its concern is happiness. Further, morality requires no reasoning. It defines the situations it applies itself to in black and white terms, whereas ethics requires one to REASON in the resolving a situation ethically.
Anyway, of course you’re responsible for your faith based beliefs and the actions that result from them. You don’t magically get a pass when you donate money to a catholic organization and it uses that money to fund bigotry or a pro life initiative, or adds to human suffering in any way. You bear responsibility for that just as you bear responsibility for the church’s actions and public positions on these issues, as you are a member. You may disagree, but as a member, it represents you, and that disagreement does not make what it has said and done disappear. Further, you haven’t the resources to disagree given the official position, and all views being invalidated that are inconsistent with it.
The moral law only applies to those who adhere to it whereas the ethical law applies to everyone. So you may get a pass from a system designed to give you a pass (though being gay, I can’t see how you can get any pass at all without lying about who you are or downplaying it and making apologies for it), but ethics will give you no comfort. And that applies the same way from postman to pontiff.
Actually, Sam, the word “marriage” is not already taken, it is a secular legal term, written into California and Federal law, that describes rights that belong to couples who have taken out a “marriage” license, gotten “married”, and filed that “marriage” license with the state. You are confusing that term, as are many religious people, with the term “holy matrimony”, a sacrament that is under the control of religions. I’m glad that you’re happy to settle with a “civil union” or “domestic partnership”; I’m not. While I may have most of the rights, if not all of the rights of marriage under California’s DP law, in the end it’s federal and states’ recognition of my marriage that is the goal. My friend Deb, who married an ex-air force captain, and who will get is pension if he predeceases her. Likewise, all couples, gay and straight, deserve equal treatment.
How can you have a rational dialogue with people who pray to a grilled cheese sandwich? If they want to pray to Santa Claus…fine….as long as they don’t force their superstitious dogma on me. I just want the “freedom” to be gainfully employed and to marry the person I love.