Besen: Can conservative religions reconcile with gays?
On Sunday, New York Times Columnist Nicholas Kristof discussed religious and cultural extremism in Pakistan, where a new cabinet member, Israr Ullah Zardari, defended the torture-murder of five women and girls who were buried alive (three girls wanted to choose their own husbands, and two women wanted to protect them.)
The Times had another article on Monday about an all-girl rock band in Saudi Arabia that is forbidden from playing live concerts because of their gender.At home, former Arkansas governor and pastor, Mike Huckabee, appeared on ABC’s “The View” and said that gay and lesbian equality was not the same as civil rights because homosexuals have not had their skulls cracked and were not hosed down by police. Apparently, he is unaware of the latest FBI hate crime statistics that show bias attacks based on sexual orientation making up 15.5 percent of all reported hate crimes.
In Rome, Pope Benedict XVI is being criticized this week for questioning the usefulness of Interfaith dialogue in a letter he wrote to Italian politician Marcello Pera. What the Pope fails to point out is that thanks to intransigent absolutists, like the pontiff, finding common ground is nearly impossible.
How can we expect interfaith dialogue when we can’t even have Interstate dialogue between two Mormon universities 45 miles apart because they have literally turned religion into a political football?
When the secular University of Utah played its religious school rival, Brigham Young University (BYU), last weekend, the teams treated the End Zone as if it were the Promised Land.
“It’s like a lot of other rivalries, except for those at the extremes,” Michael Anastasi, managing editor of the Salt Lake Tribune told the New York Times.”For them, it’s not only that your school is weak, you’re going to Hell too.”
Two years ago, the rivalry was further soured after BYU quarterback John Beck threw a touchdown pass to receiver Jonny Harline, who sank to his knees — as if in prayer — to make the winning catch. Describing the “miraculous” play, another B.Y.U. receiver, Austin Collie, concluded it occurred because students at the religious school lived cleaner lives.
“Obviously, if you do what’s right on and off the field, I think the Lord steps in and plays a part in it,” said Collie. (For the record, the holier-than-thou BYU was crushed 48-24 in this weekend’s game. I’m guessing the Lord was upset at Mormon involvement in California’s Prop. 8 banning same-sex marriages)
If religious groups become fratricidal based on football allegiance, it seems there is little hope for genuine reconciliation with gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender people. We must still work to enlighten the flock where we can, but fundamentalist leaders will only transform their anti-gay views when popular opinion decidedly turns against them — as it did with race relations in the 1960’s and 1970’s.
The strategy for the GLBT movement has been to circumvent the ideologues and create change within mainline denominations. I wholeheartedly support such efforts and have contributed to them. Unfortunately, there is scant evidence to suggest that these religious institutions will thrive and form a substantial bulwark against fundamentalism.
In “America Theocracy,” author Kevin Phillips documents the steep decline of reasonable religion in favor of the rabble-rousing variety.
“Between 1940 and 1985 mainline Protestantism’s share of all U.S. religious adherents was steadily plummeting…Between 1960 and 1997 — the Presbyterian Church, The Episcopal Church, The United Church of Christ and the Methodists lost between 500,000 and 2 million members each. In the meantime, the Southern Baptist Convention added 6 million, the Mormons 3.3 million, the Pentecostal Assemblies of God 2 million and the Church of God (Tennessee) some 600,000.”
The implications are that the GLBT movement may be placing its eggs in a basket that is rapidly fraying. It seems that people are either gravitating towards religious extremism or secular humanism, with little appetite for mainline faith. The Internet also offers easy access to eclectic spiritual beliefs that one can follow without organized religion. So, the hope that mainstream religion, as we know it, will supplant anti-gay denominations seems far-fetched.
The trends of urbanization and the discrediting of corporate Republican-style religion will lead, in my view, to more people losing their faith. However, fundamentalist sects will continue to consolidate market share for those who feel estranged or displaced by modernity. In other words, America will look much like Europe in the coming decades — with a secular majority and a small, but still vocal, fundamentalist minority. (Mostly Islamic in Europe)
I can hear objections from those who rightfully point out that America is more religious than Europe. But, Kevin Phillips reminds us that Europe was once was hyper-religious too — but circumstances change over time.
“As the 21st Century began,” writes Phillips. “None of the western countries in which Reformation Protestantism bred its radical or anarchic sects nearly five hundred years earlier — England, Scotland, Germany, Switzerland, and the Netherlands — still had congregations of any great magnitude adhering to that theology.”





Make that a 5,999,999 increase at the very most, that the SBC grew by…
I find it interesting that the Southern Baptists grew by 6 million members…I know for a fact that when I left my Southern Baptist Church and asked to be removed from the roles (the period when I started to come out), I was told, no no we’ll keep you on there just in case you ever change your mind and want to come back. I still get a birthday card…happy birthday fag! you’re one year closer to hell! so sweet
Anyway, I doubt I’m the only one. I’m pretty sure that’s inflated at least a little.
Also now that I’ve joined a UCC church, I am finding that at least this one seems to be thriving. The problem was out reach to young people. We’ve been doing a much better job showing us 20 somethings that there is a church that believes in a version of Christianity that preaches love before hate.
I think in general Besen is right, it probably should not be our top priority to change congregations from within. If you religious go to a church that will accept you. As the fundamentally conservative churches die, they will blame churches who “perverted the doctrine,” and some will never get over it, but at least we can relegate them to a minority.
I read your opinion piece and thought it was spot-on. The answer to your question “Can conservative religions reconcile with gays?” is a resounding NO.
The answer to “Can conservative religions reconcile with gays?” is NO.
They are a lost cause. There is nothing to be gained from wasting our time with those fools. What needs to be done is educating children and young people and preventing them from being brainwashed by the Religious Wrong. That is the only way to move society forward.
You always seem to hit the nail on the head. Perhaps you should educate your colleagues Withers and Corvino who fail miserably at fighting for LGBT rights.
I go to a liberal gay-friendly church run by a very witty and cheerful female pastor.
Wayne , I have to wonder if most of the conservative religious groups and denominations haven’t painted themselves into a corner , from which they will never be able to extricate themselves. In addition to the usual Biblical verses they cite as reasons for their stance against our state of being ; They have disseminated so much in the way of lies , slander and innuendo ; that they feel the necessity to save face. There must also be a great number of closet cases in high positions , as we’ve seen with those who were outed by their own actions , and may be desperate to maintain the status quo. From my perspective as a post war baby boomer with memories of it all ; I feel there is a lot of unfinished business to be dealt with. Of paramount importance to me is the historic delay in acquring anti-virals , as a result of the intransigent opposition to the use of public funds for research into HIV and the development of treatment options. This obviously denied even a fighting chance at additional life for thousands.
TheRadicalRealist Said: “The answer to “Can conservative religions reconcile with gays?” is NO. They are a lost cause. There is nothing to be gained from wasting our time with those fools. What needs to be done is educating children and young people and preventing them from being brainwashed by the Religious Wrong. That is the only way to move society forward.”
Once again, you made it unnecessary for me to type anything further. Well said.
I for one am sick and tired of the gay leadership playing the religion card. Although I am an atheist, I argue only for a return for adherence to separation of church and state. Pushing religion into the gay movement seems to be a step away from making our case in the public square where only secular arguments ought to hold sway.
Nope.
No point in trying.
A certain rabble of Konservative Kristianist Kultist Krazies (KKKK) have established UNSWERVING opposition to a woman’s right to CHOOSE and a homosexual’s right to EXIST as both doctrine AND the litmus test for entrance into heaven.
They aren’t going to risk the hereafter and whatever the kristianist equivalent of 70-some-odd (renewable) virgins on granting *us* HUMAN status.
We’re like the “mud people” of the segregationists. We’re not human; “god” didn’t create us; Satan did.
Face it.
That’s what they believe, and all that business about “love the sinner, hate the sin” is a large crock of equine excrement.
The ONLY thing an “ex-homosexual” can be in their so-called “churches” IS AN EX-HOMOSEXUAL; he or she has to work for one of the “change” ministries; they are NEVER accepted as people. They are exhibited like the bearded lady in the circus … freaks to be pitied.
Now, if the KKKK (see above) treat “ex-homosexuals” like that (whom they believe JEEEEEEEEEEE-zus has CURED), don’t expect civil rights OR religious acceptance from THEM.
The Southern Baptist Convention hated its way through the black civil rights era, and only RECENTLY apologized for SLAVERY.
THEY’RE still calling for the subjugation of WOMEN.
FORGET any dialogue about LGBTQ people.
Attempting dialogue with the Irreligious Reich is an exercise in time-wasting, and it tends to have a deleterious effect upon one’s blood pressure.
Bud Burgoon-Clark
a 2nd class citizen in CA
no thanks to
PAGAN FERTILITY CULTS
Nothing short of God Himself coming down and telling them to get with the program… and you know what the chances are of *that*.
NO, NEVER GOING TO RECONCILE. WE ARE OVER!! THROUGH, FINISHED!!!
JUST ONE LAST THING TO DO….TAKE CONFESSION AND TELL THE PRIEST SO!
As a conservative Christian and a lesbian, I assure you that conservative religions CAN reconcile with gays.
I am Mormon, moderate, and gay.
It is, in fact, possible to reconcile religion with homosexuality.
It’s just a matter of people taking the Book in context, and considering the fact that some concepts may not be directly applicable anymore.
The real question should be, is it possible to reconcile homosexuality with people too stupid to look past the surface?
In which case, I’d say no.
The point of your article is lost to me. I do not understand the point. It takes 2 to have a dialog, and conservative religions do not like the LGBT community, which we all know. You say: “The implications are that the GLBT movement may be placing its eggs in a basket that is rapidly fraying…” Who is it that is doing this? Really: If talking of: To make back up with someone: How can there be thoughts of reconciliation? With who? It takes 2 to be willing.
I don’t think the Roman Catholic Church will give up its doctrinal views on Homosexuality and other moral issues that prevails in modern society today. The pope himself condemns relativism, especially in this day and age when people are starting to abandon the absolute moral truths that the Roman Catholic church teaches. I’m a practicing Catholic and I find a great deal of difficulty promoting my sexuality as a Catholic, yet I refuse to abandon my faith because I’m loyal to the Pope and his church. It’s really best for homosexuals to separate themselves from religions that do not welcome them rather than “finding a common ground” because these religions like the Catholic Church will continue to uphold their absolute moral truths, and to abandon them would be considered doctrinal heresy. Trying to insist upon them might even lead to excommunication—which is something I dread more than anything.
Agreed. It’s always such a pity whenever I learn of one’s religious faith, but even more unsettling when a homosexual contributes to her or his own disenfranchisement by actively participating. The same blueprint builds the same house despite the idiotic clamoring of “real readings” of stories and pathetic apologetics that can easily be dispatched. It’s absurd that one is somehow given respect and a pass for simply having “religious beliefs,” the content of which flies in the face of the truth, and save for this peculiar historical accident, would be attributed to clinically insane people. To be clear, I am not calling the religionists insane, as they are fully culpable for their beliefs and the attendant behavior…oh so ethically culpable.
However, this seems yet another “awakening” going back to sleep. In amurrica, there are cycles of fanaticism followed by lulls. But if people are leaving irrational bigoted false beliefs for merely irrational beliefs or the peasant’s morality for grownup ethics, good.