My reasoning is that no protection at all, which is roughly the current status quo, equals 0% while full federal legal protection and aggressive enforcement of such policies would be 100%. Extra protection seems to imply going above and beyond full federal protection, so when you suggest extra protection is needed, my interpretation of your statement is that you are asking for more than 100%. Should gay kids of color be protected from homophobia? Absolutely! I just feel those same protections should be available and applied to all GLBT kids, regardless of color.

“‘Extra protection’ doesn’t have to mean bodyguards. It can mean education…tolerance…this needs to be more taught in these areas because homophobia is extremly high.”

Finally, a definitive concrete answer. Now we have something to work with. Proceeding from the premise that minority communities are more homophobia than white, what do you see as the underlying causes propelling this homophobia? Is it religion? Is it racism in that homosexuality is regarded as a “white problem”? Is it derived from a culture of machismo in some communities where gay men are perceived as weak and effiminate? Perhaps a combination of all these reasons and more? In the case of religious prejudice, how would you suggest trying to educate them? I must confess we have worked on that quite a while in the white gay community without much apparent success. If it boils down to race, how are white gay people supposed to answer that unless our brothers and sisters on the DL come forward and show their communities that it is not simply a white issue? If it is a matter of machismo, then what can white gays do to dispel that myth? These are questions that need to be answered if we are to move forward.

“That doesn’t go to say that whites don’t need protection but you know…in white areas…even conservative…in their schools they are still more tolerant of homosexuality in comparison to minority schools.”

This is a misconception. While minoritiy schools may indeed face more homophobia, the assumption that all white gay students are automatically better off is false. How is the gay white kid that is beaten to death better off that a gay kid of color that is still living? You might be surprised to know that there are some rural redneck hillbilly schools that would rival the homophobia of any minority school. If tolernace were the case, why do schools in predominantly white areas have to sue to form GSA’s? Why are there numerous reports of assaults on white gay kids? Why is white gay teen suicide significantly higher than their straight counterparts? The problem is when we start trying top break down the effects of homophobia specific to demographics, we seem to lose sight that homophobia effects ALL gay kids, and protecting all the kids should be our goal.

“So at least they have some sort of protection…gay groups…straight alliance what have you…or even money.”

GSA’s are formed from the courage of the students willing to make a stand. No school is built in a white area pre-packaged with a GSA, it was fought for, and many times those affected graduate while waiting for the courts to rule, never enjoying the benefits of their struggle. This aside, what specifically should white gay kids be doing to set up GSA’s in schools that, by definition, they don’t attend? Is this not an opportunity for non-white gay students/leaders to make a stand on their own behalf? On a side note, many kids of color attend schools in predominantly white areas and benefit from the GSA’s in those schools. There are also many white schools that need GSA’s and don’t have them. Sounds like there is work enough for everyone.

“They have the resources to get a lawyer and have someone advocate for their rights. You will hardly hardly see that in a non-white area (these areas are typically poor). They have no support.”

In many cases, lawyers from the ACLU and Lambda Legal represent many of the kids wanting to form GSA’s Their fees are paid by the school district when they lose. I am quite certain that if a sincere effort was made by gay minorities to form a GSA in a particular school, these 2 organizations would be more than willing to take the case, as they have done many times before. Also, to assume that every white parent has the resources to hire a lawyer is false. Some are just poor white folks in the same boat as many others who would have to sell an arm and leg to get quality legal representation. Truthfully, this is an issue that should never be brought before the courts again. It has been set in precedent numerous times that to restrict GSA’s or gay-themed clubs is a violation of constitutional rights. This doesn’t need to be reproven over and over. The law is clear. If a school violates this law, they should simply be heavily fined and the administrators fired, with no need to tie up the courts with a trial. This would go a long ways to reducing homophobia in minority communities (white communities as well).

“First off…I’m pretty sure it’s safe to say Colin Powell doesn’t live in the areas I was referring to. That makes a difference.”

I agree it makes a difference. Many things make a difference and that is one of the points I am trying to make. When blanket statements are made by either side, they ignore the differences and make the assumption that an entire group functions with one mind and purpose, and this simply isn’t the case. For one to imply all white gay kids have it better than every non-white gay kid is a case in point. All the murdered white gays kids are sure to disagree. This is not to make light of prejudice suffered by minority groups, but rather to point out that unless we stop seeing it as a black or white issue and look at the bigger picture, we will never make progress. The bigger picture is that if homophobia and racism are eliminated, no group suffers from it, and our goal should be the elimination of racism and homophobia for everyone, regardless of color.

“It seems as if you’re talking mostly about finances…I was more talking about the treatment of gays in minority neighbourhoods. Again you have taken what I said out of context.”

Not exactly sure to which statement you are taking excception, so I will just say this rather than try to defend my offending statement. Finances, like location, make a difference. Wealth and affluence greatly diminish the effects of homophobia and racism, but does not eliminate it. If I were to guess at what point I was trying to make, I would say that the way people of any community experience things like racism and homophobia differs vastly from person to person, depending on circumstance. Every person of color does not experience prejudice in the same way or even to the same degree. To assume that it operates differently just because a group of people happen to be white is erronous. We experience the extremes and everything in between as well.

“Oh, is it? You haven’t heard of minorities complaining that they feel left out? It’s a problem you know. I’ve heard it often.”

I have heard it as well, I just don’t hear it from my friends. They seem to be quite socially and racially intergrated and they pretty much participate in the same activities that I do. Maybe our experience is the exception rather than the rule, I don’t know. I think the fact that it may be an exception is significant as it only demonstrates that not all minorities feel excluded to the same degree.

“You would think that since gays have been picked on in society they would be more accepting of those who are discriminated against.”

This very same (exact same) argument was made by some white gays after the prop 8 vote.

“But many (not all) associate minorities with crime…the stereotype of being ‘bad.’ I have seen (not only through my experience but whites have said it as well) blacks (mostly not of middle-class) being isolated. It’s not in your face isolation like ‘you can’t be around us’…it’s non-verbal. It’s how they behave around you…the look on their face. You can feel the message. Just to let you know I’m not talking about myself most of the time. This comes from many people I’ve heard talk on the issue.”

Your statement above I consider to be true. There is no doubt an element of “white fear” at work and is a perfect example of why stereotypes suck. Labels serve to dehumanize and when you stop seeing the person next to you as human, the fear creeps in. The fear usually dies when people actually take time to get to know and understand each other, unless the person is psycho or something. I have met my share of crazy white people, believe that. I have seen what you describe many times myself and all I can say its that not all white people are like that. It sucks to have to deal with the ones that are.

“How many schools, churches, businesses in the area do you think would allow such a thing to happen (the minority advocate question you asked)?”

I honestly do not know. My response is, if they will not allow minority advocates, why do you assume they will respond positively to white advocates? If you are indeed correct, how would you suggest white advocates proceed? I do agree with your assessment on the effects of a boycott as a boycott in an already economically impoverished area will probably cause more harm to the locals than good.

“What I’m trying to prove is the only way you can get people to listen sometimes is to hurt them through their pockets. In these areas that’s not so easy.”

You have proven this point and I agree with your assessment.

“I don’t have to become a victim…I am victimised all the time.”

Sorry, you do not get to claim being a victim merely for existing. No one is victimized all the time. The success of many people of color is a clear demonstration of this. If your assessment were true, then we would not have a black President as I am sure he would have been victimized somewhere along the campaign trail. Really, think about what you said and compare it against the fact that a man of color is argueably the most powerful man in the world. See where hyperbole gets you?

“Why can’t you guys accept that minorities face a tougher time when it comes to their sexuality?”

Because it is a statement that doesn’t hold true 100% of the time. Again, I ask how does it get any tougher than being beat to death or shot in the back of the head in class? Whether a person experiences a harder or easier time in terms of sexuality is particular to each individual. It also dose not explain the fact that much of the state-endorsed homophobia we all face every day is the direct result of white politicians and white religious fanatics. They harm and destroy lives across the country every day. While non-white communities may internalize their homophobia, white homophobes love to spread it around to everyone and pass laws making it legal. So you see, both communities have their share of problems, and they feed off each other.

Anyways, this has gone on much farther than I had forseen. Chris I do want to thank you for taking the time to address specific concerns and for providing at least some of the answers I was looking for. Even tho we may have clashed, I appreciate you candor and your time and willingness to impart some useful information. I hope you accept my response in the spirit of genuine interest and concern and if you feel a desire to respond to any of my other questions or comments, I will be most interested in reading them.

Your comments are selfish because you are completely ignoring what the article says.”

You are correct. The very premise of the study is flawed as it attempts to attribute to homophobia conditions that exist due to the defining difference of race. In my mind, that makes it an issue of racism, not homophobia. It we need a problem to be identified to find a solution, then the correct problem needs to be identified.

“I don’t have a problem with it. I wouldn’t have a problem if a study was done geared specifically towards White Gay kids either.”

I would, for the same reason I mentioned above.

“The effects may be different. Finding a way to protect them all may be served positively by finding out what harms each group. I don’t know.”

A good place to start would be by passing legislation that would offer Federal legal protection to ALL gay kids. Then any issues of homophobia particular to specific communities can be addressed from a legal standpoint. Otherwise how can you expect the white community at large to care about non-white gay kids if it doesn’t even care about the white ones?

“From how you’ve responded to everyone on this thread that doesn’t agree with you, it is my opinion that you are not looking to be educated.”

Why? Because I’m not consumed with white guilt and I speak my mind? Because I ask hard questions and wont accept vague generalites as answer? I have asked for answers, none have been given. Pretty convenient to place the blame on me for your lack of response.

“You want to argue your point without taking into consideration that not everyone is going to view things as you do.”

I’m not here to argue anyone’s point of view but my own. This does not mean that I don’t consider other viewpoints merely because I don’t embrace them. It just means that from my perspective, you have failed to make your case.

“I did not dismiss your opinion. I said I don’t agree and told you why. You can’t say the same.”

Sounds like exactly what I did. I told you why I don’t agree with your opinions and you seem to be doing that same thing you accuse me of.

“And for the record, you’re the one throwing the word racist around, not me.”

When statements are made that would be construed as racist if the word black were substituted for white, then I call it like I see it.

“I didn’t accuse you of being one or think it had anything to do with your thought process initially.”

I also said “IF” you were speaking to me. If you were not, then obviously the rest of the statement doesn’t apply. Strange tho that the comments you made seemed to suggest that simply because I didn’t agree with the study, that I must be one of those posters that only wants to “use race when it has negative overtones.” Rather than belabor the point of my statement, I will say that if you nevertheless took offense to that statement, then I offer my sincere apologies.

“You’re the one obsessed with racism.”

Obsessed, no. I am quick to point it out however when I encounter it, no matter what the source.

“You may want to look into why you’re so afraid of someone claiming you are.”

If you see fear, you are mistaken. What you see if disgust and annoyance at the attempts of some to make sweeping generalized statements about the entire white community due to the actions of a few whites, all the while overlooking their own racism. I am disgusted that some attempt to marginalize the experiences and suffering of all white gay kids into some rose-colored utopia, a perspective not all gay white kids enjoy. I am disgusted that the focus seems to be who suffers most from homophobia rather than asking why homophobia should allowed to exist at all.

“If you know for certain you aren’t, it shouldn’t bother you so much.”

I am not concerned what others think of me, however if I see that their opinion is based on inaccurate information, I reserve the right to go on record and speak for myself and clarify or correct any errors.

“I do not intend to debate, explain, or discuss this with you any further. It would obviously be a waste of my time.”

It is probably a waste of my time as well, but it wont be said I was the one to walk away from the discussion. Feel free to give up tho, that is your right.

What is shocking is that many seem to want to lump homophobia and racism together as if they were the same thing. They are not. To continue this line of thought would suggest that no gay white kids can experience homophobia because they are, well…white, and that only non-white homophobia is actual discrimination. The assumption that gay kids of color face more homophobia than white kids is misleading because it depends upon racism to function, thereby making it a racial issue, not an issue of homophobia.

And the award for Victim of the Year goes to…

“i mean there are plenty of extremely rich black people, and that doesn’t mean they can live anywhere they want to. ever heard of housing discrimination?”

Yes. Gay people deal with housing discrimination all the time, even white gay people. You know what the difference is? You have a legal recourse if you are denied housing based on race as discrimination due to race is illegal. When you lose that right and become equal with the many white gays that face housing discrimination with no legal recourse, then we’ll talk.

“and what about all those country clubs they can’t join no matter how much many they have?”

Yes racism still exists and yes it still sucks, but the fact is private clubs have the right to set their own qualifications for members (just ask the Boy Scouts). Is it fair? No, and if I ever became a member of such a club, I would be an advocate for racial inclusion…however, they usually only accept other super-rich, ivy-league white people so I guess they wont be sending my invitation anytime soon.

“and what about driving while black…”

For the record, racial profiling is wrong and needs to be abolished. It is an infringement on basic freedoms and liberties. It assumes guilty until proven innocent, which goes against one of the most basic tenets of the American legal system which is innocent UNTIL proven guilty. Now you have it in writing, in my own words, from a white guy. I have never disputed the existence or the consequences of racism, rather I have tried to eliminate the topic of race entirely from the discussion of homophobia in schools.

“how about a number UNARMED black men being shot by the police each year?”

I don’t agree with this policy either and have spoken against it manyh times. The same goes for the disproportionate number of minorities incarcerated in the prison system. No arguements from me. This is not the result of homophobia tho, it is the result of racism and has nothing to do with the rights of gay kids in school, which is the focus of my comments.

“and what about colin powell, when he endorsed barack obama. didn’t numerous pundits say that it was because they were both black and that it had nothing to do with any cognitive reasoning on colin powell’s part?”

Numerous pundits are not authorized to speak for the entire white community, nor should you make the assumption that all whites agree with their assessment. Personally, Colin Powell is one of the VERY FEW politicians I respect. He saw the corruption of the Bush administration and severed his ties with it early on, giving up a cushy job of power and influence, not to mention a decent paycheck because he would not sell his soul. To me that speaks volumes about Powell’s character and intergrity. His willingness to cross party lines and vote his conscience demonstrates his committment to independent thought and choice, and his recent call for the abolishment of DADT shows he has an open mind and is capable of changing with the times. Given the choice between Powell and Obama, I would have voted for Powell even though he probably would have ran as a Republican. Rather than voting for Obama because he is black, I suspect Powell intelligently did so for the same reason the majority of other Americans did. He saw the same threat from McCain the rest of us did and knew another 4 years of Bush policies would be a disaster for our country.

“god, i didn’t know being rich stopped you from being discriminated against as a black person in america! thanks for enlightening me tigertzu!”

You think that if the police pull Colin Powell over that they are going to harrass him? Now you are the one that needs to get real. One look at his ID and they will be kissing butt praying they don’t lose their jobs. I doubt they worry much about that when they pull you or me over. Incidentally, I have been pulled over and harrassed by police simply because I was a white guy in a nice truck driving in a black ghetto at night. To their way of thinking, I must have been buying and/or selling drugs or guns. Seems the thought that one of my best friends might live in the neighborhood never crossed their minds, but no, I guess I wouldn’t understand what some blacks go thru. I am white after all.

The article states “While research on the experiences of LGBT students has increased in recent years, few studies have examined the specific victimization of students who identify as people of color and LGBT,”

Bottom line is you don’t think a study geared specifically towards Gay kids of color should have been done. I don’t have a problem with it. I wouldn’t have a problem if a study was done geared specifically towards White Gay kids either.

The effects may be different. Finding a way to protect them all may be served positively by finding out what harms each group. I don’t know.

Since you’ve decided to tell me what I’m thinking and decend into a personal critique of me, I’ll do the same.

From how you’ve responded to everyone on this thread that doesn’t agree with you, it is my opinion that you are not looking to be educated. You want to argue your point without taking into consideration that not everyone is going to view things as you do.

I did not dismiss your opinion. I said I don’t agree and told you why. You can’t say the same.

And for the record, you’re the one throwing the word racist around, not me. I didn’t accuse you of being one or think it had anything to do with your thought process initially. You’re the one obsessed with racism. You may want to look into why you’re so afraid of someone claiming you are. If you know for certain you aren’t, it shouldn’t bother you so much.

I do not intend to debate, explain, or discuss this with you any further. It would obviously be a waste of my time.

BuhBye

Once again, you see only what you choose to see. Twice now I have asked quiestions hoping for honest, intelligent answers and all I get is diatribe. If you got the message from my posts that I do not want race included in discussions, then you either didn’t read my posts, or you have trouble with reading comprehension. With this in mind, you “get over it”.

“if you can’t understand from this study that queer youth of color may have to contend with MORE discrimination than queer white youths, because of they are of color and they are queer and thus DOUBLY marginilized, i don’t know what to say to you.”

And again, if this is the message you got from my post, even though I specifically said “I do agree that when homophobia is coupled with racism, the outcome is often more severe for gay kids of color,…” then this is another example of YOUR refusal to have rational discussion on race. You obviously didn’t read my posts carefully, yet you take exception simply because I don’t happen to agree with your assessment. You don’t want a discussion, you want to tell us how it is and should be and expect us to begin there, implying that your own myopic viewpoints are above question or reproach. Furthermore, your premise is based on a faulty assumption. In your world, only non-whites ever face discrimination and are never capable of racism themselves. While I agree that non-whites bear the bulk of racism, it does happen the other way around as well. I have seen and experienced it personally, so stop acting like whites are the only ones capable of racism and like whites are “all in this together” and we are all a bunch of non-white haters. In addition, twice I specifically stated that my comments related ONLY to the homophobic aspect, not the racial aspect. MY point this entire time has been that ALL gay kids need protection from homophobia before we start talking about “extra protection” from homophobia. If you want extra protection from racism, then that is a separate issue and one I would fully support.