Comments on: Presbyterians again reject gay clergy

By: Ed Gould

Ed Gould — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 03:59:25 +0000

Not sure if this is a good quote at this time but as someone once said:

“Religion is the opiate of the masses”

This in reality is no different than some religions refuse to have women as clergy. Religion is on its last legs why care one way or the other? As long as they aren’t out teaching hate we should care less. The religions that do, we should be able to keep them isolated and use them to show what hate really is to the straight people.

Religion is so old and decrepit that they think they can ignore change. Well they are wrong history has proved them wrong so many times it is almost funny. If you belong to one religion or another good for you, but do not expect things will be the same in 100 years. I will go out on a limb here and say Catholicism will disappear in 200 years (or less).

Let the people have their own beliefs and you keep yours. Let them stew in their own mess.

By: Ross

Ross — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 03:26:40 +0000

Eric: The moment they actually start thinking.

By: Eric

Eric — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 02:59:50 +0000

When will people – gay, straight, whatever – learn that organized religion is pure evil?

By: Wayne

Wayne — Tue, 28 Apr 2009 01:20:13 +0000

Do not give up. Slowly, but surely, we are gaining more and more allies in the faith community. Educate them and change will come. Remember, our first job is to prove to religious moderates and progressives that the religious conservatives are wrong and there is nothing to fear by opening doors to LGBT equality.

By: Dan

Dan — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 23:33:41 +0000

“Paul Detterman, executive director of Presbyterians for Renewal, a conservative group, said he was pleased ‘the church has once again voted to uphold historical biblical standards of ordination’…”

Detterman’s comment is either ignorant or, more likely, dishonest. The clause calls for marriage between a man and a woman, but polygamy dominates the Old Testament, and a wide variety of family arrangements are found in the New Testament.

As Kristie said, Jesus told the disciples to leave their homes and families and follow him. Jesus regarded his followers as his family. When told, “Your mother and brothers are outside to see you,” he replied, “Who are my mother and my brothers?” Then he looked around at his followers and said, “Look! My mother and my sisters and my brothers!”

The clause also calls for “chastity in singleness,” in other words, no fornication. The word translated fornication in the New Testament is the Greek “porneia”, which actually meant prostitution or harlotry.

Furthermore, church liturgies included blessings of same-sex unions until the 17th century. The constitutional clause, adopted as recently as 1996, isn’t “historical and biblical” but a reflection of modern prejudice.

Most of the information in this post comes from William L. Countryman’s book “Dirt, Greed, and Sex: Sexual Ethics in the New Testament.” The 2007 edition addresses the modern idea that marriage should be between one man and one woman, and the book’s dismissal of the notion that the Bible considers homosexuality a sin is practically irrefutable.

By: Ken

Ken — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:56:54 +0000

Some of us live in presbyteries of the PCUSA where the vote was 5 to 1 in favor of change, but still we find ourselves hobbled by being part of a national system that does not yet fully embrace us. But we remain confident that God is on our side, and time is on our side, so we keep working for the inevitable change. Is that so different from what we’ve done for 40 years in civil society? In my lifetime of experience the organization doesn’t hate us. It does fear us, but only a minority actually hate us.

By: LOrion

LOrion — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 22:20:22 +0000

““It doesn’t seem that minds have changed as much as voting patterns have changed this time around,” he said. That is a patently ridiculous statement or don’t these people use their minds to make their decision to vote?

By: Clay

Clay — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:30:02 +0000

@ Jay – I’ve said it before on here in response to similar comments…there are many people who feel a loyalty to their heritage, or just plain like many aspects of their organization, that’s why they stay.

In fact it actually HELPS the LGBT cause to have allies in places like that (like Alabama, where I live). Because there are few out people here, it’s easier to touch someone and make them understand that we are real people.

That’s why spies are so effective: infiltrate and let them get to know that a gay man is no different from them…that’s how progress has been made in this denomination.

By: Stuff Queer People Need To Know

Stuff Queer People Need To Know — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 20:21:08 +0000

That’s totally not shocking.

http://stuffqueerpeopleneedtoknow.wordpress.com/

By: Kristie

Kristie — Mon, 27 Apr 2009 18:16:39 +0000

If they really wanted their ministers to “pledge themselves to live lives obedient to Jesus Christ the Head of the Church,” they would tell them to leave their wives, children and families behind and wander the countryside preaching the gospel. That’s what he told his deciples to do, why shouldn’t they have to do it too? I guess that wouldn’t keep much money in the churches then, would it. Oh well.

It’s really nice to see that so many states that get labeled as hot-beds of bigotry have shown that they are moving past some of their prejudices. Now if only the rest of them could have…