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	<title>Comments on: Petitioners to Mormons: Soften gay marriage stance</title>
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	<description>The daily news source for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community</description>
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		<title>By: Jeff C.</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-68056</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff C.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 14 Jul 2009 23:06:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-68056</guid>
		<description>The LDS church has always allowed NON-PRACTICING gay and lesbian members to remain active in the church. It is only when they are actively engaging in homosexual activities that they are excommunicated. The LDS church does not, in my opinion, have a bigoted and hypocritical stance against gays. Like it or not the bible states that homosexuality is a SIN in the eyes of GOD. Whether you agree with this or not is your right, but the LDS church follows the word of GOD and therefore strives to follow his teachings. Those who do not agree with this stance call Mormons bigoted, hateful and other names simply because they have chosen to take a moral stand for what they believe in. If you are gay you are still welcome in the LDS church, but you WILL be reminded that your activities are against the will of GOD and may face excommunication should you choose to actively participate in homosexual acts. The same goes for heterosexual couples who have sex outside of marriage or with another partner while married. Rather than trying to get the church to change its stance the BGLT community should try to understand their stance and respect it. If someone chooses to be an active gay they can do so, just not as a member of the LDS church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The LDS church has always allowed NON-PRACTICING gay and lesbian members to remain active in the church. It is only when they are actively engaging in homosexual activities that they are excommunicated. The LDS church does not, in my opinion, have a bigoted and hypocritical stance against gays. Like it or not the bible states that homosexuality is a SIN in the eyes of GOD. Whether you agree with this or not is your right, but the LDS church follows the word of GOD and therefore strives to follow his teachings. Those who do not agree with this stance call Mormons bigoted, hateful and other names simply because they have chosen to take a moral stand for what they believe in. If you are gay you are still welcome in the LDS church, but you WILL be reminded that your activities are against the will of GOD and may face excommunication should you choose to actively participate in homosexual acts. The same goes for heterosexual couples who have sex outside of marriage or with another partner while married. Rather than trying to get the church to change its stance the BGLT community should try to understand their stance and respect it. If someone chooses to be an active gay they can do so, just not as a member of the LDS church.</p>
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		<title>By: Michael W</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64685</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael W</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:37:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64685</guid>
		<description>@Robert:  I agree in general with your comments. Growing up mormon, serving a mormon mission etc. I am more than familiar with the ideology.  I do however, question one statement you made...&quot;If the church were to reverse itself, it would likely cause problems for them as members would wonder how the prophet could have been wrong initially.&quot;  

This is not the case.  The mormon &quot;prophets&quot; have been wrong on many counts, have changed directions many times and because Mormon culture engrains in its memebers the ideology NOT TO QUESTION, they would not even question the shift as they are raised without a molecule of critical thinking skills.  Such is the case with the following teachings that they adhered to and believed in and in some cases &quot;would never change&quot;.
A)  They taught that Adam was god.
B)  They taught that Christs sacrifice was not enough in some cases and only through BLOOD ATONEMENT could the person be redeemed.
C)  They taught plural marriage was the only TRUE marriage and the only way to the Celestial Kingdom (their version of heavan)...they ridiculed 1 man/1 woman marriages as selfish/evil.

The list goes on and on, but they no longer practise any of these teachings (no openly at least). They have changed the text of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine &amp; Covenants, and Pearl or Great Price repeatedly over the years as science and history have disproven things in them.  For those that want references, you can look at http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon.html for the details.

My point simply put, Mormons are taught not to question their Prophet and Apostles and most of them adher to this and are trapped in a brainless religion/culture.  From my own personal experience, coming out wasn&#039;t the issue - knowing I would be rejected from the church is what caused great pain and took years to reconcile.  I am still in recovery. :)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Robert:  I agree in general with your comments. Growing up mormon, serving a mormon mission etc. I am more than familiar with the ideology.  I do however, question one statement you made&#8230;&#8221;If the church were to reverse itself, it would likely cause problems for them as members would wonder how the prophet could have been wrong initially.&#8221;  </p>
<p>This is not the case.  The mormon &#8220;prophets&#8221; have been wrong on many counts, have changed directions many times and because Mormon culture engrains in its memebers the ideology NOT TO QUESTION, they would not even question the shift as they are raised without a molecule of critical thinking skills.  Such is the case with the following teachings that they adhered to and believed in and in some cases &#8220;would never change&#8221;.<br />
A)  They taught that Adam was god.<br />
B)  They taught that Christs sacrifice was not enough in some cases and only through BLOOD ATONEMENT could the person be redeemed.<br />
C)  They taught plural marriage was the only TRUE marriage and the only way to the Celestial Kingdom (their version of heavan)&#8230;they ridiculed 1 man/1 woman marriages as selfish/evil.</p>
<p>The list goes on and on, but they no longer practise any of these teachings (no openly at least). They have changed the text of the Book of Mormon, Doctrine &amp; Covenants, and Pearl or Great Price repeatedly over the years as science and history have disproven things in them.  For those that want references, you can look at <a href="http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.trialsofascension.net/mormon.html</a> for the details.</p>
<p>My point simply put, Mormons are taught not to question their Prophet and Apostles and most of them adher to this and are trapped in a brainless religion/culture.  From my own personal experience, coming out wasn&#8217;t the issue &#8211; knowing I would be rejected from the church is what caused great pain and took years to reconcile.  I am still in recovery. <img src='http://www.365gay.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Toni</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64682</link>
		<dc:creator>Toni</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:29:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64682</guid>
		<description>&quot;Same rights, just don&#039;t call it a marriage&quot; is oxymoronic logic.  In my opinion, everyone has the right to be treated with equal dignity by their government.  For government to insist that the word &quot;marriage&quot; only be legally applied to hetero couples is to insist on treating gays with less dignity than straights.  Though individuals are free to THINK of one another as less dignified, their GOVERNMENT ought to treat every law-abiding citizen with equal dignity.  Requiring gay couples to stand in the &quot;Domestic partnership&quot; line while everyone else is free to join the &quot;Marriage&quot; line is an indignation.  Again, let each person regard his neighbor with whatever amount of dignity he sees fit, but GOVERNMENT must not make those personal judgements, nor codify them into law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Same rights, just don&#8217;t call it a marriage&#8221; is oxymoronic logic.  In my opinion, everyone has the right to be treated with equal dignity by their government.  For government to insist that the word &#8220;marriage&#8221; only be legally applied to hetero couples is to insist on treating gays with less dignity than straights.  Though individuals are free to THINK of one another as less dignified, their GOVERNMENT ought to treat every law-abiding citizen with equal dignity.  Requiring gay couples to stand in the &#8220;Domestic partnership&#8221; line while everyone else is free to join the &#8220;Marriage&#8221; line is an indignation.  Again, let each person regard his neighbor with whatever amount of dignity he sees fit, but GOVERNMENT must not make those personal judgements, nor codify them into law.</p>
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		<title>By: gyzmo</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64671</link>
		<dc:creator>gyzmo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:45:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64671</guid>
		<description>Now this is progress. This is the kind of progress that is going on at a faster pass than ever. People are not dumb and can see through the hate and bigotry.  Just takes time. Fear of the unknown. Education is the key. We will prevail. Equality for ALL.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now this is progress. This is the kind of progress that is going on at a faster pass than ever. People are not dumb and can see through the hate and bigotry.  Just takes time. Fear of the unknown. Education is the key. We will prevail. Equality for ALL.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64660</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 14:14:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64660</guid>
		<description>Mormons follow a religion founded by a psychotic nutcase. Polygamy was sanctioned until it became illegal, but is still widely practised. Any average news reporter can find a polygamist cult even if the cops can&#039;t. Mormons discriminated against Blacks until forced to back off. Given free rein no telling what terrible things they&#039;ll come up with. Mormons and those that follow Heil Benedict should be forced from our shores. What we need is freedom FROM r3eligion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mormons follow a religion founded by a psychotic nutcase. Polygamy was sanctioned until it became illegal, but is still widely practised. Any average news reporter can find a polygamist cult even if the cops can&#8217;t. Mormons discriminated against Blacks until forced to back off. Given free rein no telling what terrible things they&#8217;ll come up with. Mormons and those that follow Heil Benedict should be forced from our shores. What we need is freedom FROM r3eligion.</p>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64636</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:53:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64636</guid>
		<description>With many religions one could quote bible passages about slavery, the subjugation of women, etc... to make a case that the Bible is not infallible.  And you could then lump homophobia as something culturally acceptable then, but something we need not accept today.  

But this would not work with the Mormons.  They already know the Bible is flawed.  

But unlike any other Christian denomination, they have other books of scripture.  And those books are infallible in their minds.  And the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are pretty poetic on marriage.  Nothing is mentioned in these books about homosexuality or gay people.  

Worse, they have a &#039;living prophet&#039; whose utterances they regard as equal in authority to scripture.  Whatever a prophet states in an official capacity is as equally binding on them as the Bible or any of the other 4 books of scripture they adhere to.  

Therefore, when the Mormon prophet denounces homosexuality, that is it.  No petition is going to help.  On of their favorite sayings is &#039;when the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.&#039; End of subject!  

If the church were to reverse itself, it would likely cause problems for them as members would wonder how the prophet could have been wrong initially.  They aren&#039;t going to rock their boat of infallibity.  

When I left the church I joined the group for gay Mormons - Affirmation.  It was a nice experience, but I eventually realized we would never budge the church on this issue.  Wanting to cut myself off from it entirely, I left the group.  

I admire those making the effort.  But it won&#039;t do any good...   Only when the political climate changes to the point that homophobia is no longer culturally acceptable will they then have a new &#039;revelation,&#039; where God will change course.  Just as was the case with allowing black people to have the priesthood in the 70s (which prior to that time was disallowed because black people were made black as a mark to show they were the spirits who were not valiant in the war in heaven - prior to the earth being made)....  

I&#039;ve been out of the church for 20 years now.  With each year I wonder how so many people can be so hoodwinked as those who live for it..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With many religions one could quote bible passages about slavery, the subjugation of women, etc&#8230; to make a case that the Bible is not infallible.  And you could then lump homophobia as something culturally acceptable then, but something we need not accept today.  </p>
<p>But this would not work with the Mormons.  They already know the Bible is flawed.  </p>
<p>But unlike any other Christian denomination, they have other books of scripture.  And those books are infallible in their minds.  And the Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price are pretty poetic on marriage.  Nothing is mentioned in these books about homosexuality or gay people.  </p>
<p>Worse, they have a &#8216;living prophet&#8217; whose utterances they regard as equal in authority to scripture.  Whatever a prophet states in an official capacity is as equally binding on them as the Bible or any of the other 4 books of scripture they adhere to.  </p>
<p>Therefore, when the Mormon prophet denounces homosexuality, that is it.  No petition is going to help.  On of their favorite sayings is &#8216;when the prophet has spoken, the thinking has been done.&#8217; End of subject!  </p>
<p>If the church were to reverse itself, it would likely cause problems for them as members would wonder how the prophet could have been wrong initially.  They aren&#8217;t going to rock their boat of infallibity.  </p>
<p>When I left the church I joined the group for gay Mormons &#8211; Affirmation.  It was a nice experience, but I eventually realized we would never budge the church on this issue.  Wanting to cut myself off from it entirely, I left the group.  </p>
<p>I admire those making the effort.  But it won&#8217;t do any good&#8230;   Only when the political climate changes to the point that homophobia is no longer culturally acceptable will they then have a new &#8216;revelation,&#8217; where God will change course.  Just as was the case with allowing black people to have the priesthood in the 70s (which prior to that time was disallowed because black people were made black as a mark to show they were the spirits who were not valiant in the war in heaven &#8211; prior to the earth being made)&#8230;.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been out of the church for 20 years now.  With each year I wonder how so many people can be so hoodwinked as those who live for it..</p>
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		<title>By: Scott P.</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64633</link>
		<dc:creator>Scott P.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 12:33:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64633</guid>
		<description>Bot,

I shouldn&#039;t dignify your comments with a rebuttal, but here goes.

Child marriage is a straw-man arguments, put forth as a scare tactic. Most &quot;successful&quot; societies, if &quot;success&quot; is defined as a &quot;society&quot; with a growing population, actually favor the taking of underaged girls and forcing them into marriages that benefit the familial group, the girl&#039;s wishes not withstanding. No-one on the side of marriage equality favors forcing minors into marriages. Not even if the minor wants said marriage.

As to polygamy, many &quot;expanding&quot; cultures allow it. but, again, it&#039;s irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

Citing &quot;fail&quot; cultures (a definition of a failed culture would be helpful) is asinine. Mostly when people make this argument, they&#039;re referring to Rome. Well, when Rome fell it was a Christian, heterosexual centrist empire. Homosexuality was illegal and punishable by death. Every society &quot;fails&quot;, period. Eventually, even the United States will &quot;fail&quot; to be replaced by either a regressive, or even more progressive society, and it&#039;s going to be because of myriad factors, not because it&#039;s &quot;lost&quot; it&#039;s moral compass.

Please, in future, cite actual examples to back up your statements, not just ideas from some &quot;professor&quot; or other to back up your claims. Vagaries really don&#039;t make for strong arguments.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Bot,</p>
<p>I shouldn&#8217;t dignify your comments with a rebuttal, but here goes.</p>
<p>Child marriage is a straw-man arguments, put forth as a scare tactic. Most &#8220;successful&#8221; societies, if &#8220;success&#8221; is defined as a &#8220;society&#8221; with a growing population, actually favor the taking of underaged girls and forcing them into marriages that benefit the familial group, the girl&#8217;s wishes not withstanding. No-one on the side of marriage equality favors forcing minors into marriages. Not even if the minor wants said marriage.</p>
<p>As to polygamy, many &#8220;expanding&#8221; cultures allow it. but, again, it&#8217;s irrelevant to the discussion at hand.</p>
<p>Citing &#8220;fail&#8221; cultures (a definition of a failed culture would be helpful) is asinine. Mostly when people make this argument, they&#8217;re referring to Rome. Well, when Rome fell it was a Christian, heterosexual centrist empire. Homosexuality was illegal and punishable by death. Every society &#8220;fails&#8221;, period. Eventually, even the United States will &#8220;fail&#8221; to be replaced by either a regressive, or even more progressive society, and it&#8217;s going to be because of myriad factors, not because it&#8217;s &#8220;lost&#8221; it&#8217;s moral compass.</p>
<p>Please, in future, cite actual examples to back up your statements, not just ideas from some &#8220;professor&#8221; or other to back up your claims. Vagaries really don&#8217;t make for strong arguments.</p>
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		<title>By: Bot</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64629</link>
		<dc:creator>Bot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:13:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64629</guid>
		<description>When marriage loses its unique status, women and children most frequently are the direct victims. Giving same-sex relationships or out-of-wedlock heterosexual couples the same special status and benefits as the marital bond would not be the expansion of a right but the destruction of a principle. . If the one-man/one-woman definition of marriage is broken, there is no logical stopping point for continuing the assault on marriage.

If feelings are the key requirement, then why not let three people marry, or two adults and a child, or consenting blood relatives of any age? . Marriage-based kinship is essential to stability and continuity in our state. Child abuse is much more prevalent when a living arrangement is not based on kinship.  Kinship imparts family names, heritage, and property, secures the identity and commitment of fathers for the sake of the children, and entails mutual obligations to the community. 

 The US Supreme Court declared in 1885 that states&#039; marriage laws must be based on &quot;the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony; the sure foundation of all that is stable and noble in our civilization, the best guaranty of that reverent morality which is the source of all beneficent progress in social and political improvement.&#039;&#039;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When marriage loses its unique status, women and children most frequently are the direct victims. Giving same-sex relationships or out-of-wedlock heterosexual couples the same special status and benefits as the marital bond would not be the expansion of a right but the destruction of a principle. . If the one-man/one-woman definition of marriage is broken, there is no logical stopping point for continuing the assault on marriage.</p>
<p>If feelings are the key requirement, then why not let three people marry, or two adults and a child, or consenting blood relatives of any age? . Marriage-based kinship is essential to stability and continuity in our state. Child abuse is much more prevalent when a living arrangement is not based on kinship.  Kinship imparts family names, heritage, and property, secures the identity and commitment of fathers for the sake of the children, and entails mutual obligations to the community. </p>
<p> The US Supreme Court declared in 1885 that states&#8217; marriage laws must be based on &#8220;the idea of the family, as consisting in and springing from the union for life of one man and one woman in the holy estate of matrimony; the sure foundation of all that is stable and noble in our civilization, the best guaranty of that reverent morality which is the source of all beneficent progress in social and political improvement.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Bot</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64628</link>
		<dc:creator>Bot</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 10:11:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64628</guid>
		<description>Marriage reflects the natural moral and social law evidenced the world over. As the late British social anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin noted in his study of world civilizations, any society that devalued the nuclear family soon lost what he called &quot;expansive energy,&quot; which might best be summarized as society&#039;s will to make things better for the next generation. In fact, no society that has loosened sexual morality outside of man-woman marriage has survived.

 Analyzing studies of cultures spanning several thousands of years on several continents, Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marriage reflects the natural moral and social law evidenced the world over. As the late British social anthropologist Joseph Daniel Unwin noted in his study of world civilizations, any society that devalued the nuclear family soon lost what he called &#8220;expansive energy,&#8221; which might best be summarized as society&#8217;s will to make things better for the next generation. In fact, no society that has loosened sexual morality outside of man-woman marriage has survived.</p>
<p> Analyzing studies of cultures spanning several thousands of years on several continents, Harvard sociologist Pitirim Sorokin found that virtually all political revolutions that brought about societal collapse were preceded by a sexual revolution in which marriage and family were devalued by the culture’s acceptance of homosexuality.</p>
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		<title>By: JSmith</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/petitioners-to-mormons-soften-gay-marriage-stance/comment-page-2/#comment-64624</link>
		<dc:creator>JSmith</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 24 Jun 2009 09:02:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8188#comment-64624</guid>
		<description>&quot;Mr&quot; says  &quot;Protect the institution of Marriage&quot;  you sound like George W. Bush!  LOL   Loser.  Protect Marriage from what?  The boogeyman.  Please.  

Go get a life.  People like you have turned me into what you consider &quot;mean&quot;  O poor lil guy, everyone is picking on you.  Its exactly your statement that has us ANGRY!   Did I stutter?  ANGRY.

So you better back the Fu8k off and go bring your sorry you know what back to your sorry silly goofball, cultist &quot;Church.&quot; 

What a silly, psycho &quot;religion&quot;  follow some guy who said &quot;god&quot; came down and talked to him and told him to marry as many woman as he wants (since they are property anyways) right?   Sounds like someone on LSD.  We need to protect our society from you and Nuts like Joseph Smith (young girl molestors) etc.    Furthermore, what sickos marry their own neices?  Thats what you are trying to &quot;protect&quot;?  LOL

Probably if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young told you all to drink Arsenic Lace Kool Aid, you would?  We couldnt be that lucky... darn.

Please you can have that &quot;institution!&quot;

Bye Loser.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Mr&#8221; says  &#8220;Protect the institution of Marriage&#8221;  you sound like George W. Bush!  LOL   Loser.  Protect Marriage from what?  The boogeyman.  Please.  </p>
<p>Go get a life.  People like you have turned me into what you consider &#8220;mean&#8221;  O poor lil guy, everyone is picking on you.  Its exactly your statement that has us ANGRY!   Did I stutter?  ANGRY.</p>
<p>So you better back the Fu8k off and go bring your sorry you know what back to your sorry silly goofball, cultist &#8220;Church.&#8221; </p>
<p>What a silly, psycho &#8220;religion&#8221;  follow some guy who said &#8220;god&#8221; came down and talked to him and told him to marry as many woman as he wants (since they are property anyways) right?   Sounds like someone on LSD.  We need to protect our society from you and Nuts like Joseph Smith (young girl molestors) etc.    Furthermore, what sickos marry their own neices?  Thats what you are trying to &#8220;protect&#8221;?  LOL</p>
<p>Probably if Joseph Smith and Brigham Young told you all to drink Arsenic Lace Kool Aid, you would?  We couldnt be that lucky&#8230; darn.</p>
<p>Please you can have that &#8220;institution!&#8221;</p>
<p>Bye Loser.</p>
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