you should always hear both sides of the story first.

#1: Yes, any organization is made up of members, but what the members of an organization do with their own money is NOT counted as the organization ITSELF doing so with funds entrusted to it. The LDS Church is no exception here.

That said, if the allegations that the LDS Church has reimbursed Yes On 8 donors, then that would indeed qualify IMHO, as it would be an attempted end-run around the restriction.

#2: Religions are NOT forbidden from endorsing political POSITIONS (including Propositions) from the pulpit without risking their tax-exempt status. They are ONLY forbidden from endorsing SPECIFIC CANDIDATES FOR PUBLIC OFFICE from the pulpit.

That said, Fred hit the nail on the head. I believe that part of why the LDS faith encouraged its members to support 8 was an attempt to gain acceptance from other churches and religions groups.

And, in at least the short term, at least in lip-service, it worked. A letter of thanks was publicized in which various churches and right-wing political organizations, many of them vehement enemies of the LDS faith, thanks the LDS for their support on 8, and even called them “our Mormon brethren.”

This, mind you, from groups that publish some of the most biased anti-LDS books and other materials out there.

The irony is that Proposition 8, like similar Amendments in many other States, is aimed JUST AS MUCH at the Mormon belief in plural marriage (often called “polygamy” but is more properly termed “polygyny,” since men can have multiple wives but women cannot have multiple husbands). While the mainstream LDS faith has not practiced plural marriage since Utah became a State, the belief is still part of LDS doctrine (Doctrine & Covenants §132). The Book of Mormon forbids plural marriage for the people of that place and time, but reserves to God the right to institute it at any time that He intends to “raise up seed unto” Himself. Mormons believe that God commands and revokes commandments at various times (e.g. Abraham, Isræl neé Jacob, Kings David and Solomon, and many others had multiple wives and even concubines, at least tacitly endorsed by God Himself. In the case of David, God outright states that HE GAVE David his former master Saul’s house “AND THY MASTER’S •WIVES• unto thy bosom.”

And yet, what do ALL of these Amendments say? Marriage is defined as being — what? — between •A• man and •A• womAn! Get it? It’s not just targeting same-sex, but multiple-partner as well!

Finally, I must point out that those who have vandalized LDS property, or even picketed the Los Angeles Temple, were doing EXACTLY what they WANTED. You see, Christians in general, and the LDS especially, have a persecution complex. Jesus PROMISED them that they would be so blessed as to be counted worthy to suffer persecution in His name! They WANT to be persecuted. They HAVE to be persecuted, or else Jesus’s promise fails, and what would THAT mean? It would yank the rug right out from under their entire worldview!

Christians are so desperate for persecution that they will actually MAKE IT UP if they can’t get the real thing. “Oh, NOES!! That store clerk just wished me HAPPY HOLIDAYS [never mind that ‘holidays’ is and always was short for ‘HOLY days’] instead of MERRY CHRISTMAS!! WAR ON CHRISTMAS!! PERSECUTION!!!”

Of course, the passage of any law that treats religions equally instead of giving Christianity special favors? PERSECUTION!! Teaching science instead of Bronze-age creation myths in science class? PERSECUTION!!

No. REAL persecution is what Nero did to the ancient Christians. REAL persecution is what the mainstream Christians in the 19th Century did to the Mormons, especially in Missouri and Illinois. It was actually LEGAL under State Law to KILL a Mormon for any reason, or even no reason at all, in the State of Missouri ever since Governor Boggs signed the Extermination Order, until the late 1970s when it was FINALLY repealed.

Not having a law to force businesses to shut down on Sundays? NOT persecution. Not having Christian (but nobody else’s) prayers in schools, led by the teachers? NOT persecution. Not spending public funds on Christian-specific displays in public places? NOT persecution.

They consider all of those “persecution” because they’re DESPERATE for the Real Thing. Why GIVE it to them!? That’s what they WANT!!

Please don’t tell me to shut up. I have as much right to post here as you do.

Regarding your comments – any organisation has the right to a voice in the political process, and the Mormon Church has as much right to a voice as any of the many organisations that represent LGBT interests.

And frankly, whether or not you feel they SHOULD have a voice is irrelevant. The fact is that they do, they have exercised that right and there’s not a damn thing you or anyone else can do about it.

Freedom of speech and expression doesn’t just mean allowing people to talk who say what you want to hear. It means allowing people to talk even when they say things you DON’T want to hear.

In this case, they used lies to coerce the people of California into voting for a measure that denies gays and lesbians access to a fundamental right. It was a cruel and hateful thing to do. They’ve done it, they’ve had to waste a shitload of money doing it, and ultimately it will be undone.

Let them waste their money if they want. It is their right, and ultimately their efforts will fail, because common sense and decency will win out in the end. I have faith in the sanity and integrity of the courts in this matter, and no amount of Mormon money will stop them from doing what’s right.

Wouldn’t that be a violation of the whole secular attitude that our country has?

I really can’t bring myself to care how much the Mormons or anyone else spent on this campaign. It’s their money, they have a right to involve themselves in the political process, so I can’t bring myself to care how much they spent or what they used it for.

Don’t misunderstand me – I think the lies perpetrated by religious groups, particularly the Mormons, were repugnant. Religious groups, including the Mormons, spread lies to manipulate the people of California into believing that Prop 8 was not only a good thing, but that it was essential to protect their Churches, even their whole way of life. I think the tactics employed by the Mormons were vile.

I still don’t give a crap how much they spent, though.

And I don’t care how much more they’re going to spend.

Let them bleed every member of their congregation dry fighting this. Let them bankrupt themselves if they feel this battle is important enough. The LGBT community will win out in the end, and they will be so much poorer when it comes to the next battle.

Let them waste their money – no amount of money will keep this vile piece of legislation in place.

So are you are looking to have a conversation or do you want just to be rude and childish?

Sincerely,

James