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	<title>Comments on: LGBT groups urge dropping federal gay marriage case</title>
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		<title>By: Robert</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59670</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 30 May 2009 19:42:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59670</guid>
		<description>Typical tepid gay rights leadership. Nothing great was ever accomplished with caution. 

The last two gay rights decisions on the court have gone our way. We still have four pro-gay justices, and I see no reason to believe that Sotomayor won&#039;t vote similarly to Souter. That&#039;s a potential five votes. 

Why not now?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Typical tepid gay rights leadership. Nothing great was ever accomplished with caution. </p>
<p>The last two gay rights decisions on the court have gone our way. We still have four pro-gay justices, and I see no reason to believe that Sotomayor won&#8217;t vote similarly to Souter. That&#8217;s a potential five votes. </p>
<p>Why not now?</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59290</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 21:38:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59290</guid>
		<description>John, I love the way you think! How wonderful it would be if Olson would cite Scalia&#039;s sarcastic comments in our cause. I do recall that some of the pro-gay rulings (Goodridge, perhaps, but also a ruling from the Kansas Supreme Court on their Romeo-Juliet law that did not apply to gay relationships) have cited Scalia&#039;s dissent to our benefit. I suspect he wishes that he had never gone there; I doubt he even imagined that homosexuals might want to get married.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, I love the way you think! How wonderful it would be if Olson would cite Scalia&#8217;s sarcastic comments in our cause. I do recall that some of the pro-gay rulings (Goodridge, perhaps, but also a ruling from the Kansas Supreme Court on their Romeo-Juliet law that did not apply to gay relationships) have cited Scalia&#8217;s dissent to our benefit. I suspect he wishes that he had never gone there; I doubt he even imagined that homosexuals might want to get married.</p>
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		<title>By: CalLawyer</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59286</link>
		<dc:creator>CalLawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 21:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59286</guid>
		<description>Ok...so I just watched the interview with Ted Olson.  While I stand by my prior comments about what (in my opinion) would be a more effective manner of challenging Prop 8, it seems clear that the strategy of these litigants is to establish a federal precedent that gays and lesbians have the same fundamental right to marry originally established by the Loving case.

Frankly, I wouldn&#039;t mind seeing a second federal lawsuit that is focused on the language of the Strauss decision and whether Prop 8 violated the 14th Amendment.  That would cover both the broad sweep and narrow focus approaches.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok&#8230;so I just watched the interview with Ted Olson.  While I stand by my prior comments about what (in my opinion) would be a more effective manner of challenging Prop 8, it seems clear that the strategy of these litigants is to establish a federal precedent that gays and lesbians have the same fundamental right to marry originally established by the Loving case.</p>
<p>Frankly, I wouldn&#8217;t mind seeing a second federal lawsuit that is focused on the language of the Strauss decision and whether Prop 8 violated the 14th Amendment.  That would cover both the broad sweep and narrow focus approaches.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59276</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 21:06:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59276</guid>
		<description>Jay, I couldn&#039;t agree more about the Chief Justice.  I think he well may be disposed in our favor and besides, if anyone might convince him, Ted Olson might.  And besides, the only Justice in Lawrence who went on a rant about gay marriage was Scalia, so I could see Olson standing there with a straight face and beginning his argument, &quot;As Justice Scalia himself pointed out, Lawrence stands as a precedent for due process and equal protection justification for repealing state laws banning gay marriage . . .&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jay, I couldn&#8217;t agree more about the Chief Justice.  I think he well may be disposed in our favor and besides, if anyone might convince him, Ted Olson might.  And besides, the only Justice in Lawrence who went on a rant about gay marriage was Scalia, so I could see Olson standing there with a straight face and beginning his argument, &#8220;As Justice Scalia himself pointed out, Lawrence stands as a precedent for due process and equal protection justification for repealing state laws banning gay marriage . . .&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Jay</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59275</link>
		<dc:creator>Jay</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 21:03:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59275</guid>
		<description>John, thank you for your excellent analysis. I think there may even be a surprise 6th possible vote: Roberts. As I dimly recall, during his confirmation hearings, it was revealed that he had offered pro bono advice to the litigators in Lawrence v. Texas. He may be a closet libertarian. In any case, I agree with you: we won&#039;t know what the Supreme Court will say until we ask them. If they say no, then we continue with the work at the state level.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John, thank you for your excellent analysis. I think there may even be a surprise 6th possible vote: Roberts. As I dimly recall, during his confirmation hearings, it was revealed that he had offered pro bono advice to the litigators in Lawrence v. Texas. He may be a closet libertarian. In any case, I agree with you: we won&#8217;t know what the Supreme Court will say until we ask them. If they say no, then we continue with the work at the state level.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry Fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59244</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 20:12:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59244</guid>
		<description>Interesting data point to ponder:

When Bowers v. Hardwick was decided, one state had an anti-discrimination law: Wisconsin. When Lawrence v. Texas was decided, approximately 20 states had anti-discrimination laws.

Why does this matter? Because anti-discrimination laws pave the way to more people coming out. When more people come out, straight people who get to know them vote for us in larger numbers. 

I&#039;m not a lawyer, but I did read the Bowers decision. (I also got arrested protesting on the steps of the Supreme Court during the March on Washington in &#039;87. SEE! I wasn&#039;t always this &quot;moderate.&quot; ;-) ) When I read the majority opinion, it was so obviously full of the kind of mental gymnastics that people engage in when they aren&#039;t grounding their opinions in any real-world knowledge of gay people. Contrast that with the MA decision legalizing marriage equality; those judges (even in the dissent, IMO) obviously understood gay couples and their families.

We really need to shore up our support of ENDA. People are underestimating the power of that proposed law and what it will do for the gay people in the 30 states that currently do not have an anti-discrimination law.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting data point to ponder:</p>
<p>When Bowers v. Hardwick was decided, one state had an anti-discrimination law: Wisconsin. When Lawrence v. Texas was decided, approximately 20 states had anti-discrimination laws.</p>
<p>Why does this matter? Because anti-discrimination laws pave the way to more people coming out. When more people come out, straight people who get to know them vote for us in larger numbers. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m not a lawyer, but I did read the Bowers decision. (I also got arrested protesting on the steps of the Supreme Court during the March on Washington in &#8216;87. SEE! I wasn&#8217;t always this &#8220;moderate.&#8221; <img src='http://www.365gay.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' />  ) When I read the majority opinion, it was so obviously full of the kind of mental gymnastics that people engage in when they aren&#8217;t grounding their opinions in any real-world knowledge of gay people. Contrast that with the MA decision legalizing marriage equality; those judges (even in the dissent, IMO) obviously understood gay couples and their families.</p>
<p>We really need to shore up our support of ENDA. People are underestimating the power of that proposed law and what it will do for the gay people in the 30 states that currently do not have an anti-discrimination law.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry Fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59240</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 20:04:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59240</guid>
		<description>&gt;But I don’t see how far we can go with the state-by-state route. We will probably soon get civil unions in Illinois and domestic partnerships in Nevada, if not this year then next year; and and we will probably get marriage in New York and New Jersey and perhaps Rhode Island, Delaware, and Maryland soon. But after those states, I don’t know where we go.

You&#039;ve just described 3 to 5 years worth of work (especially if you&#039;re including Rhode Island in that list). Why can&#039;t we hold back on a federalization movement for 3-5 years while we gain this ground in the states?! (Go, Eastern Seaboard Strategy! Maryland to Maine!)

If we&#039;re lucky, Obama may get another appointment in that time, bolstering our chances. Also, if Obama follows through on his promises to further ENDA and end DADT (stop laughing, out there!), then that will set the table nicely for a case moving to the Supreme Court.

What&#039;s that saying about &quot;fools rush in...&quot;?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;But I don’t see how far we can go with the state-by-state route. We will probably soon get civil unions in Illinois and domestic partnerships in Nevada, if not this year then next year; and and we will probably get marriage in New York and New Jersey and perhaps Rhode Island, Delaware, and Maryland soon. But after those states, I don’t know where we go.</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve just described 3 to 5 years worth of work (especially if you&#8217;re including Rhode Island in that list). Why can&#8217;t we hold back on a federalization movement for 3-5 years while we gain this ground in the states?! (Go, Eastern Seaboard Strategy! Maryland to Maine!)</p>
<p>If we&#8217;re lucky, Obama may get another appointment in that time, bolstering our chances. Also, if Obama follows through on his promises to further ENDA and end DADT (stop laughing, out there!), then that will set the table nicely for a case moving to the Supreme Court.</p>
<p>What&#8217;s that saying about &#8220;fools rush in&#8230;&#8221;?</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry Fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59230</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 19:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59230</guid>
		<description>This all breaks my heart. Thank you for your sane and experienced posts, Steve.

I wish we could take *half* of this passion and energy and aim it toward passing ENDA. I firmly believe that will set the stage nicely to enable a federal marriage equality movement. It&#039;s really hard to imagine states accepting marriage equality that are still firing gay people and kicking them out of their homes. Let&#039;s create a stable environment in which we can more safely come out in 30 of our states. We don&#039;t have that, yet, and it&#039;s a shame.

Then, we can take the other half of the passion and energy and use it to win back California (and maybe convince folks to make it harder to amend the constitution there).

I support everyone&#039;s intentions, but bringing a case to the Supreme Court is very bad strategy right now. There is sooo much other meaningful, related, and &quot;table setting&quot; work we could be doing right now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This all breaks my heart. Thank you for your sane and experienced posts, Steve.</p>
<p>I wish we could take *half* of this passion and energy and aim it toward passing ENDA. I firmly believe that will set the stage nicely to enable a federal marriage equality movement. It&#8217;s really hard to imagine states accepting marriage equality that are still firing gay people and kicking them out of their homes. Let&#8217;s create a stable environment in which we can more safely come out in 30 of our states. We don&#8217;t have that, yet, and it&#8217;s a shame.</p>
<p>Then, we can take the other half of the passion and energy and use it to win back California (and maybe convince folks to make it harder to amend the constitution there).</p>
<p>I support everyone&#8217;s intentions, but bringing a case to the Supreme Court is very bad strategy right now. There is sooo much other meaningful, related, and &#8220;table setting&#8221; work we could be doing right now.</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-6/#comment-59217</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 19:15:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59217</guid>
		<description>Steve, I’m a member of the Bar in California, but not a specialist in Constitutional law.  However, I have read Lawrence (several times) and Romer and Bowers and other relevant case law.  I am not as pessimistic as you are about this lawsuit.  Indeed, looking at the unmitigated cock-up our “leadership” made of the Prop 8 fight last year - a world-class example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and spending several million dollars doing it - I have to say I place MORE confidence in a federal suit at this point than I do in waging another ballot initiative fight (and I hasten to add, these are not two, mutually exclusive strategies and both should be vigorously pursued).

I also want to say, I do not question Ted Olson’s good faith, motives, or good judgment.  I know the man is a conservative Republican, but I also know he’s a partner in one of this state’s largest and most prestigious law firms and I doubt very seriously that he would engage in conduct which, as you must know if you are a member of the Bar in California, would cross way over the professional misconduct line.  He represents these clients because he believes he can do so in good faith and with proper zeal and I, for one, am glad to see him on the right side of an issue for a change.

I want to dispense with comparisons to the Bowers example first.  That case was decided nearly a quarter-century ago when the entire country was far different, far less tolerant, than it is today.  It was presented to a Court which, I submit, was far more conservative than even today’s Court is.  Burger, Rehnquist, Byron White - three strong conservatives; Powell was right of center on “social” issues, certainly on the question of the right of a state to enact a prohibition against “sodomy” (itself almost an archaic term today); Sandra Day O’Connor had yet to move as markedly to the center as she would do in her later career.  Indeed, had Justice Powell had his “second thoughts” before concurring in the result rather than after, sodomy laws in this country might have been struck down 16 years earlier than they were.  At best, the opinion reflected a divided and shaky majority with a majority opinion and two concurring opinions.  I simply don’t see how the legal world or the real world of 2009 are comparable to the mid-80s.

Romer, if I remember correctly, did not address Bowers because no one asked the Court to address Bowers.  I happen to believe that was a mistake, for the make-up of the Court had changed dramatically in the decade following Bowers (Romer was decided in 1996).  Burger, White, and Powell had left the Court and Justice O’Connor had become a “swing” vote on many issues.  (She certainly swung in this instance, moving from the 5-vote (wobbly) majority in Bowers to the 6-vote majority in Romer.)  Yet possibly because “our side” was hesitant to risk another adverse opinion, they passed up a direct challenge to Bowers, leaving that case to stand as good law for another 6 years.  You never win the fight you’re afraid to fight is the lesson I take from that.

In 2003, the Court in Lawrence struck down a Texas sodomy statute on both due process and equal protection grounds.  Justice Kennedy, a Republican and Republican-appointee who had also authored the majority opinion in Romer, wrote for himself and four of his colleagues; Justice O’Connor concurred in the result, limiting her rationale to equal protection.  Counting heads, that makes a 6-3 majority on the side of Right.  It is particularly significant to my way of thinking that the majority opinion rested not only on equal protection but on due process.  Quoting from Justice Kennedy’s opinion (slip op. at 6):

[sodomy statutes] do seek to control a personal relationship that, whether or not entitled to formal recognition in the law, is within the liberty of persons to choose without being punished as criminals.

This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects. (emphasis added)

What is a prohibition against same-sex marriage if it is not an attempt to define or set boundaries to a relationship which injures no one and abuses no protected institution?

And farther along in the opinion, Justice Kennedy cites Planned Parenthood of Southern PA v. Casey as confirming “that our laws and tradition afford constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, etc.”, going on to point out that “Persons in a homosexual relationship may seek autonomy for these purposes just as heterosexual persons do.”  (Slip op. at 13; emphasis added)  See also his reasoning as to why Lawrence had to be decided on due process as well as equal protection grounds.  (slip op. at 14)

Now, I acknowledge that Justice Kennedy wrote, in concluding his opinion, that the case before the Court did not “involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.” (slip. op. at 18)  In the context of his larger opinion, though, that appears to me to be a simple statement of fact and nothing more.  He was not saying that that question could not be presented subsequently and that the Court could not hold that the due process and equal protection clauses of the U. S. Constitution did in fact protect the right of same-sex couples to be married, he simply recited the fact - the question was not presented to the Court in Lawrence.  Personally, I set more store by his next paragraph, the penultimate in the opinion:

Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific.  They did not presume to have this insight.  They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress.  As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.  (id.)

Those do not strike me as the words of a Justice whose mind and heart are frozen in time or who is unlikely to entertain a petition to strike down prohibitions against same-sex marriage which, after all “serve only to oppress.”

Finally, what do we have to lose?  We can still pursue repeal of Prop 8 at the ballot box and should.  If the Court holds that there is no Federal due process or equal protection right to same-sex marriage, states can still provide for it in their statutes.  And even an adverse opinion isn’t forever, it’s just for as long as the make-up of the Court which handed it down remains the same.  This isn’t our only bite at the apple; it’s just one of many firsts.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, I’m a member of the Bar in California, but not a specialist in Constitutional law.  However, I have read Lawrence (several times) and Romer and Bowers and other relevant case law.  I am not as pessimistic as you are about this lawsuit.  Indeed, looking at the unmitigated cock-up our “leadership” made of the Prop 8 fight last year &#8211; a world-class example of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory and spending several million dollars doing it &#8211; I have to say I place MORE confidence in a federal suit at this point than I do in waging another ballot initiative fight (and I hasten to add, these are not two, mutually exclusive strategies and both should be vigorously pursued).</p>
<p>I also want to say, I do not question Ted Olson’s good faith, motives, or good judgment.  I know the man is a conservative Republican, but I also know he’s a partner in one of this state’s largest and most prestigious law firms and I doubt very seriously that he would engage in conduct which, as you must know if you are a member of the Bar in California, would cross way over the professional misconduct line.  He represents these clients because he believes he can do so in good faith and with proper zeal and I, for one, am glad to see him on the right side of an issue for a change.</p>
<p>I want to dispense with comparisons to the Bowers example first.  That case was decided nearly a quarter-century ago when the entire country was far different, far less tolerant, than it is today.  It was presented to a Court which, I submit, was far more conservative than even today’s Court is.  Burger, Rehnquist, Byron White &#8211; three strong conservatives; Powell was right of center on “social” issues, certainly on the question of the right of a state to enact a prohibition against “sodomy” (itself almost an archaic term today); Sandra Day O’Connor had yet to move as markedly to the center as she would do in her later career.  Indeed, had Justice Powell had his “second thoughts” before concurring in the result rather than after, sodomy laws in this country might have been struck down 16 years earlier than they were.  At best, the opinion reflected a divided and shaky majority with a majority opinion and two concurring opinions.  I simply don’t see how the legal world or the real world of 2009 are comparable to the mid-80s.</p>
<p>Romer, if I remember correctly, did not address Bowers because no one asked the Court to address Bowers.  I happen to believe that was a mistake, for the make-up of the Court had changed dramatically in the decade following Bowers (Romer was decided in 1996).  Burger, White, and Powell had left the Court and Justice O’Connor had become a “swing” vote on many issues.  (She certainly swung in this instance, moving from the 5-vote (wobbly) majority in Bowers to the 6-vote majority in Romer.)  Yet possibly because “our side” was hesitant to risk another adverse opinion, they passed up a direct challenge to Bowers, leaving that case to stand as good law for another 6 years.  You never win the fight you’re afraid to fight is the lesson I take from that.</p>
<p>In 2003, the Court in Lawrence struck down a Texas sodomy statute on both due process and equal protection grounds.  Justice Kennedy, a Republican and Republican-appointee who had also authored the majority opinion in Romer, wrote for himself and four of his colleagues; Justice O’Connor concurred in the result, limiting her rationale to equal protection.  Counting heads, that makes a 6-3 majority on the side of Right.  It is particularly significant to my way of thinking that the majority opinion rested not only on equal protection but on due process.  Quoting from Justice Kennedy’s opinion (slip op. at 6):</p>
<p>[sodomy statutes] do seek to control a personal relationship that, whether or not entitled to formal recognition in the law, is within the liberty of persons to choose without being punished as criminals.</p>
<p>This, as a general rule, should counsel against attempts by the State, or a court, to define the meaning of the relationship or to set its boundaries absent injury to a person or abuse of an institution the law protects. (emphasis added)</p>
<p>What is a prohibition against same-sex marriage if it is not an attempt to define or set boundaries to a relationship which injures no one and abuses no protected institution?</p>
<p>And farther along in the opinion, Justice Kennedy cites Planned Parenthood of Southern PA v. Casey as confirming “that our laws and tradition afford constitutional protection to personal decisions relating to marriage, etc.”, going on to point out that “Persons in a homosexual relationship may seek autonomy for these purposes just as heterosexual persons do.”  (Slip op. at 13; emphasis added)  See also his reasoning as to why Lawrence had to be decided on due process as well as equal protection grounds.  (slip op. at 14)</p>
<p>Now, I acknowledge that Justice Kennedy wrote, in concluding his opinion, that the case before the Court did not “involve whether the government must give formal recognition to any relationship that homosexual persons seek to enter.” (slip. op. at 18)  In the context of his larger opinion, though, that appears to me to be a simple statement of fact and nothing more.  He was not saying that that question could not be presented subsequently and that the Court could not hold that the due process and equal protection clauses of the U. S. Constitution did in fact protect the right of same-sex couples to be married, he simply recited the fact &#8211; the question was not presented to the Court in Lawrence.  Personally, I set more store by his next paragraph, the penultimate in the opinion:</p>
<p>Had those who drew and ratified the Due Process Clauses of the Fifth Amendment or the Fourteenth Amendment known the components of liberty in its manifold possibilities, they might have been more specific.  They did not presume to have this insight.  They knew times can blind us to certain truths and later generations can see that laws once thought necessary and proper in fact serve only to oppress.  As the Constitution endures, persons in every generation can invoke its principles in their own search for greater freedom.  (id.)</p>
<p>Those do not strike me as the words of a Justice whose mind and heart are frozen in time or who is unlikely to entertain a petition to strike down prohibitions against same-sex marriage which, after all “serve only to oppress.”</p>
<p>Finally, what do we have to lose?  We can still pursue repeal of Prop 8 at the ballot box and should.  If the Court holds that there is no Federal due process or equal protection right to same-sex marriage, states can still provide for it in their statutes.  And even an adverse opinion isn’t forever, it’s just for as long as the make-up of the Court which handed it down remains the same.  This isn’t our only bite at the apple; it’s just one of many firsts.</p>
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		<title>By: CalLawyer</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/lgbt-groups-urge-dropping-federal-gay-marriage-case/comment-page-5/#comment-59213</link>
		<dc:creator>CalLawyer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 May 2009 19:05:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7640#comment-59213</guid>
		<description>Ok Steve - I&#039;ll explain it to you.  The 14th Amendment applies the Federal guarantees of due process and equal protection to the states.  What this means is that a state, under its own laws or constitution cannot deprive a person or group of persons of equal protection.  In analysing the issue, the Court looks at the laws and constitution of the state in question to determine whether that state&#039;s laws or constitution violate the 14th Amendment.  While Federal constitutional law provides the minimum standards of equal protection and due process, a state is free to provide greater standards - which California does, for instance in the fact that our Constitution contains an express right to privacy under Article 1.

Federal Courts and the SCOTUS do not have to find that marriage equality is an inalienable right or that gays and lesbians are part of a suspect class; as far as citizens of California are concerned, those issues were established in our favor by In re: Marriage Cases, and were repeated and confirmed in Tuesday&#039;s opinion.  As a result, the substantive law which the Federal Courts will apply in their equal protection and due process analysis is whether the constitution and laws of California treat all of its citizens equally, or whether they are applied discriminately.  The CASC made this a bit easier for the Federal Courts by holding Prop 8 &quot;as carving out an exception to the preexisting scope of the privacy and due process clauses of the California Constitution&quot;.  Seems to me these folks chose to excercise a slavish devotion to the proposition system, while also intentionally providing grounds for a federal challenge. 

As for the complaint, if you had taken the time to look at it closely you would discover that it was filed May 22 - the Friday before the opinion was issued on May 26.  The lawyers filing the action were completely unaware of how the CASC would rule, or the rationale they would use.  Rather, it is clear that it was filed immediately after the CASC announed that it would issue its ruling -doubtlessly so that this would be the senior case (and Mssrs. Olson and Boies would be lead counsel) in the likley event that other cases are filed and ordered consolidated.

Bottom line, since it is clear that you are not a lawyer, I would suggest you take some ConLaw and Choice of Law classes before pontificating.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok Steve &#8211; I&#8217;ll explain it to you.  The 14th Amendment applies the Federal guarantees of due process and equal protection to the states.  What this means is that a state, under its own laws or constitution cannot deprive a person or group of persons of equal protection.  In analysing the issue, the Court looks at the laws and constitution of the state in question to determine whether that state&#8217;s laws or constitution violate the 14th Amendment.  While Federal constitutional law provides the minimum standards of equal protection and due process, a state is free to provide greater standards &#8211; which California does, for instance in the fact that our Constitution contains an express right to privacy under Article 1.</p>
<p>Federal Courts and the SCOTUS do not have to find that marriage equality is an inalienable right or that gays and lesbians are part of a suspect class; as far as citizens of California are concerned, those issues were established in our favor by In re: Marriage Cases, and were repeated and confirmed in Tuesday&#8217;s opinion.  As a result, the substantive law which the Federal Courts will apply in their equal protection and due process analysis is whether the constitution and laws of California treat all of its citizens equally, or whether they are applied discriminately.  The CASC made this a bit easier for the Federal Courts by holding Prop 8 &#8220;as carving out an exception to the preexisting scope of the privacy and due process clauses of the California Constitution&#8221;.  Seems to me these folks chose to excercise a slavish devotion to the proposition system, while also intentionally providing grounds for a federal challenge. </p>
<p>As for the complaint, if you had taken the time to look at it closely you would discover that it was filed May 22 &#8211; the Friday before the opinion was issued on May 26.  The lawyers filing the action were completely unaware of how the CASC would rule, or the rationale they would use.  Rather, it is clear that it was filed immediately after the CASC announed that it would issue its ruling -doubtlessly so that this would be the senior case (and Mssrs. Olson and Boies would be lead counsel) in the likley event that other cases are filed and ordered consolidated.</p>
<p>Bottom line, since it is clear that you are not a lawyer, I would suggest you take some ConLaw and Choice of Law classes before pontificating.</p>
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