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	<title>Comments on: Kalamazoo passes &#8211; then repeals &#8211; gay rights ordinance</title>
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		<title>By: H. (Bart) Vincelette</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-2/#comment-39359</link>
		<dc:creator>H. (Bart) Vincelette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Jan 2009 03:22:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39359</guid>
		<description>dfrw is right in his &#039;telling it like it is&#039;. Same-sex marriage , to the religious right; has served as a diplomatic vehicle of sorts , in that they don&#039;t have to voice what is really in their hearts. They are not concerned about the redefining of marriage so much as being possessed with a pathological opposition to our very existence.In accomodating them through the years out of some ethrereal respect for freedom of religion ; it has always seemed to me to be as is in the so-called &#039;culture wars&#039;, we stuck to the tenets of the Geneva Convention; while the various groups who have essentially devoted their lives to fighting any semblance of respect and recognition of our core human dignity , on behalf of anyone.Criticize them and they protest being attacked for their &quot;deeply held beliefs&quot;.The academic perspective on this hatred and immaturity would label it &quot; a load of crap&quot;.1.Religion is based on faith; not facts.2.Yes , the devout and wide-eyed Pilgrims fled Britain in pursuit of geography where they could be free to practice their beliefs. And , they found it, .....in Holland. But they also found a blanket freedom of religion in place , which they weren&#039;t about to tolerate ; being in possession of the &#039;only truth there ever was&#039;.3.An essential component of higher functioning is missing in people who are convinced that the Bible is to be taken literally , and that it is the final and infallible ; word of an omnipotent deity.( One of my favourite admonitions of God that&#039;s found in the blood stained Good Book&#039;, is &quot; suffer not a witch to live&quot;.)4.It must be difficult for people to believe in evolution; who are not themselves yet fully evolved.5. As shocking and reprehensible as you may think they can tend to be ;.....They are worse.&#039;Faith&#039; can inspire and promote goodnes and charity ; or it can be the original weapon of mass destruction , with profit margins that are tax-free and breathtaking. Folks , ...why are there an estimated 36,000 Christian denomination on the planet? Happy New Year to y&#039;all , and I thank providence with all my being for having lived to see a black man like Barack Obama become president of the USA. Judging him by the standards of Dr. King ; by the content of his character ;One sees nothing but excellence and integrity.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>dfrw is right in his &#8216;telling it like it is&#8217;. Same-sex marriage , to the religious right; has served as a diplomatic vehicle of sorts , in that they don&#8217;t have to voice what is really in their hearts. They are not concerned about the redefining of marriage so much as being possessed with a pathological opposition to our very existence.In accomodating them through the years out of some ethrereal respect for freedom of religion ; it has always seemed to me to be as is in the so-called &#8216;culture wars&#8217;, we stuck to the tenets of the Geneva Convention; while the various groups who have essentially devoted their lives to fighting any semblance of respect and recognition of our core human dignity , on behalf of anyone.Criticize them and they protest being attacked for their &#8220;deeply held beliefs&#8221;.The academic perspective on this hatred and immaturity would label it &#8221; a load of crap&#8221;.1.Religion is based on faith; not facts.2.Yes , the devout and wide-eyed Pilgrims fled Britain in pursuit of geography where they could be free to practice their beliefs. And , they found it, &#8230;..in Holland. But they also found a blanket freedom of religion in place , which they weren&#8217;t about to tolerate ; being in possession of the &#8216;only truth there ever was&#8217;.3.An essential component of higher functioning is missing in people who are convinced that the Bible is to be taken literally , and that it is the final and infallible ; word of an omnipotent deity.( One of my favourite admonitions of God that&#8217;s found in the blood stained Good Book&#8217;, is &#8221; suffer not a witch to live&#8221;.)4.It must be difficult for people to believe in evolution; who are not themselves yet fully evolved.5. As shocking and reprehensible as you may think they can tend to be ;&#8230;..They are worse.&#8217;Faith&#8217; can inspire and promote goodnes and charity ; or it can be the original weapon of mass destruction , with profit margins that are tax-free and breathtaking. Folks , &#8230;why are there an estimated 36,000 Christian denomination on the planet? Happy New Year to y&#8217;all , and I thank providence with all my being for having lived to see a black man like Barack Obama become president of the USA. Judging him by the standards of Dr. King ; by the content of his character ;One sees nothing but excellence and integrity.</p>
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		<title>By: Jeff</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-2/#comment-39162</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeff</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 21:28:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39162</guid>
		<description>The population of Kalamazoo is about 77,000 people.  Yes, times are bad in
Michigan but 90% of the population did
not up and leave.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The population of Kalamazoo is about 77,000 people.  Yes, times are bad in<br />
Michigan but 90% of the population did<br />
not up and leave.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-2/#comment-39132</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 17:57:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39132</guid>
		<description>Just a correction for the article. Being from Michigan I knew that the population of Kalamazoo mentioned in the article (7,200) had to be wrong. It was. The author forgot an extra &quot;7&quot; as the population is 77,200 people. 

Also a little ditbit from me being a Michigander. The whole bloody western side of the state (where Kalamazoo is located) is all traditionally very conservative. So it doesn&#039;t surprise me that the commissioners were so apprehensive of allowing it to be put to a public vote.

However, I feel it&#039;s going to likely be put to a public vote either now or in the future. So they might of well has stuck to it now, see if it got put on a ballot, then addressed the situation with whatever the outcome of the vote would have been. Obtaining a non-discrimination policy will all come down to a vote: either by the commissioners or by the citizens of Kalamazoo repealing the law if the public were to pass it on a ballot. So let&#039;s see and have some educating and campaigning. 

But above all, this is ridiculous that anyone would bloody oppose this! Come on. What&#039;s their argument? That it&#039;s a choice and doesn&#039;t deserve &quot;special treatment.&quot; We&#039;ve got some educating to do. But let&#039;s hope that most people aren&#039;t on their side in the first place. Good grief.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just a correction for the article. Being from Michigan I knew that the population of Kalamazoo mentioned in the article (7,200) had to be wrong. It was. The author forgot an extra &#8220;7&#8243; as the population is 77,200 people. </p>
<p>Also a little ditbit from me being a Michigander. The whole bloody western side of the state (where Kalamazoo is located) is all traditionally very conservative. So it doesn&#8217;t surprise me that the commissioners were so apprehensive of allowing it to be put to a public vote.</p>
<p>However, I feel it&#8217;s going to likely be put to a public vote either now or in the future. So they might of well has stuck to it now, see if it got put on a ballot, then addressed the situation with whatever the outcome of the vote would have been. Obtaining a non-discrimination policy will all come down to a vote: either by the commissioners or by the citizens of Kalamazoo repealing the law if the public were to pass it on a ballot. So let&#8217;s see and have some educating and campaigning. </p>
<p>But above all, this is ridiculous that anyone would bloody oppose this! Come on. What&#8217;s their argument? That it&#8217;s a choice and doesn&#8217;t deserve &#8220;special treatment.&#8221; We&#8217;ve got some educating to do. But let&#8217;s hope that most people aren&#8217;t on their side in the first place. Good grief.</p>
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		<title>By: dfrw</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39076</link>
		<dc:creator>dfrw</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 10:41:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39076</guid>
		<description>Whenever conservatives/Republicans/wingnuts say they only want to protect marriage, what they really mean is that they want all protections and rights stripped from homosexuals.  Religion is a protected class, but religionists don&#039;t want protection extended to others.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whenever conservatives/Republicans/wingnuts say they only want to protect marriage, what they really mean is that they want all protections and rights stripped from homosexuals.  Religion is a protected class, but religionists don&#8217;t want protection extended to others.</p>
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		<title>By: TANK</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39062</link>
		<dc:creator>TANK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 04:49:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39062</guid>
		<description>Right, brain drain.  Michigan can take a flying leap with its antigay laws and people.  There are like three progressive areas in the whole goddamn state.  My only hope is that it suffers more economic hardship with its backward policies and people (upper peninsula screwholes are basically degenerates).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Right, brain drain.  Michigan can take a flying leap with its antigay laws and people.  There are like three progressive areas in the whole goddamn state.  My only hope is that it suffers more economic hardship with its backward policies and people (upper peninsula screwholes are basically degenerates).</p>
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		<title>By: LOrion</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39061</link>
		<dc:creator>LOrion</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 04:44:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39061</guid>
		<description>David...that was so well put in a l949...that 60 yrs ago folks, song.

ARTIST: Rodgers and Hammerstein
TITLE: You&#039;ve Got to Be Carefully Taught

[South Pacific]1949

You&#039;ve got to be taught to hate and fear
You&#039;ve got to be taught from year to year
It&#039;s got to be drummed in your dear little ear
You&#039;ve got to be carefully taught

You&#039;ve got to be taught to be afraid
Of people whose eyes are oddly made
And people whose skin is a different shade
You&#039;ve got to be carefully taught

You&#039;ve got to be taught before it&#039;s too late
Before you are six or seven or eight
To hate all the people your relatives hate
You&#039;ve got to be carefully taught
You&#039;ve got to be carefully taught</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>David&#8230;that was so well put in a l949&#8230;that 60 yrs ago folks, song.</p>
<p>ARTIST: Rodgers and Hammerstein<br />
TITLE: You&#8217;ve Got to Be Carefully Taught</p>
<p>[South Pacific]1949</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve got to be taught to hate and fear<br />
You&#8217;ve got to be taught from year to year<br />
It&#8217;s got to be drummed in your dear little ear<br />
You&#8217;ve got to be carefully taught</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve got to be taught to be afraid<br />
Of people whose eyes are oddly made<br />
And people whose skin is a different shade<br />
You&#8217;ve got to be carefully taught</p>
<p>You&#8217;ve got to be taught before it&#8217;s too late<br />
Before you are six or seven or eight<br />
To hate all the people your relatives hate<br />
You&#8217;ve got to be carefully taught<br />
You&#8217;ve got to be carefully taught</p>
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		<title>By: Jack Fritscher</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39059</link>
		<dc:creator>Jack Fritscher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:52:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39059</guid>
		<description>This article validates why, after teaching university in Kalamazoo for 8 years (1967-1975), I fled the place and moved to San Francisco where, using my skills as a professor, I was able to build a wonderful writing career in gay publishing. Small American towns like this with their &quot;bi-polar on-again and off-again politics&quot; drive interesting people away. I loved my peers at Western Michigan University, but my then-lover and I knew we had no future in that town filled with the fundamentalist darkness of Protestant Calvinism which the university community itself could not beat back.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This article validates why, after teaching university in Kalamazoo for 8 years (1967-1975), I fled the place and moved to San Francisco where, using my skills as a professor, I was able to build a wonderful writing career in gay publishing. Small American towns like this with their &#8220;bi-polar on-again and off-again politics&#8221; drive interesting people away. I loved my peers at Western Michigan University, but my then-lover and I knew we had no future in that town filled with the fundamentalist darkness of Protestant Calvinism which the university community itself could not beat back.</p>
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		<title>By: Kalamazooan</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39056</link>
		<dc:creator>Kalamazooan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 03:39:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39056</guid>
		<description>I suspect the comma in the population of Kalamazoo is misplaced.  The population of the city of Kalamazoo is about 80,000.  Kalamazoo is the home of the former Upjohn pharmaceutical company (absorbed by Pfizer), Western Michigan University, Kalamazoo College, and a significant paper industry.  The area was formerly the world&#039;s leading producer of celery, and bedding plants.  It&#039;s a mix of progressive (college town, educated people in pharm industry, significant support for the arts) and conservative (significant Dutch-American Christian Reformed Church population).  On the progressive side, it&#039;s the home of gay billionaire Jon Stryker&#039;s Arcus Foundation.

Both the unanimous passage and the reversal do not surprise me.  The political leadership has always been generally progressive.  However, there is a yahoo contingent in the area, and what the article does not share is that AFA of Michigan can draw from and organize a wide swath of highly religious/conservative people in the &quot;Dutch triangle&quot; of Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, and Holland, Michigan.

These individuals are, in many cases, descendants of Dutch immigrants who fled the Netherlands in 19th century because they were part of a subculture that was disliked by the rest of the Netherlands for having extremely conservative-religious views (e.g., the immigrants thought dancing is a sin).

When they established the colony of Holland, Michigan in 1847, they decided it was godly to burn down the native American villages.

The conservative, mob-ready culture that remains in parts of western lower Michigan had a big part in the harassment of Gerry Crane, a music teacher in Byron Center, Michigan who was outed and ended up dying young of stress-related problems.

Finally: The name of the city of Kalamazoo was named after the Kalamazoo River, with &quot;Kalamazoo&quot; being a native American name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I suspect the comma in the population of Kalamazoo is misplaced.  The population of the city of Kalamazoo is about 80,000.  Kalamazoo is the home of the former Upjohn pharmaceutical company (absorbed by Pfizer), Western Michigan University, Kalamazoo College, and a significant paper industry.  The area was formerly the world&#8217;s leading producer of celery, and bedding plants.  It&#8217;s a mix of progressive (college town, educated people in pharm industry, significant support for the arts) and conservative (significant Dutch-American Christian Reformed Church population).  On the progressive side, it&#8217;s the home of gay billionaire Jon Stryker&#8217;s Arcus Foundation.</p>
<p>Both the unanimous passage and the reversal do not surprise me.  The political leadership has always been generally progressive.  However, there is a yahoo contingent in the area, and what the article does not share is that AFA of Michigan can draw from and organize a wide swath of highly religious/conservative people in the &#8220;Dutch triangle&#8221; of Kalamazoo, Grand Rapids, and Holland, Michigan.</p>
<p>These individuals are, in many cases, descendants of Dutch immigrants who fled the Netherlands in 19th century because they were part of a subculture that was disliked by the rest of the Netherlands for having extremely conservative-religious views (e.g., the immigrants thought dancing is a sin).</p>
<p>When they established the colony of Holland, Michigan in 1847, they decided it was godly to burn down the native American villages.</p>
<p>The conservative, mob-ready culture that remains in parts of western lower Michigan had a big part in the harassment of Gerry Crane, a music teacher in Byron Center, Michigan who was outed and ended up dying young of stress-related problems.</p>
<p>Finally: The name of the city of Kalamazoo was named after the Kalamazoo River, with &#8220;Kalamazoo&#8221; being a native American name.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: RICK</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39043</link>
		<dc:creator>RICK</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:18:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39043</guid>
		<description>????? !!!!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>????? !!!!</p>
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		<title>By: Ed Gould</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/kalamazoo-passes-then-repeals-gay-rights-ordinance/comment-page-1/#comment-39042</link>
		<dc:creator>Ed Gould</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Jan 2009 01:17:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4824#comment-39042</guid>
		<description>It is a shame that the people of Kalamazoo are so afraid of the religious right. That just goes to show that gay people have a smaller list of places where they can work and live in relative safety. The companies that are head quartered there should have spoken up but they did not. That also shows that the companies are not a LGBT friendly. So next time a recruiter ask tell them the company is not LGBT friendly and walk away.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is a shame that the people of Kalamazoo are so afraid of the religious right. That just goes to show that gay people have a smaller list of places where they can work and live in relative safety. The companies that are head quartered there should have spoken up but they did not. That also shows that the companies are not a LGBT friendly. So next time a recruiter ask tell them the company is not LGBT friendly and walk away.</p>
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