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	<title>Comments on: Hungarian gays win partnership rights</title>
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	<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/</link>
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		<title>By: Hungarian</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-56718</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 19:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56718</guid>
		<description>In fact we have an &quot;implicit&quot; constitutional ban on gay marriage in Hungary. The HU constitution has a provision very similar to art. 29 of the Italian constitution, both protect familz and marriage. The HU const court interpreted this provision in 2 cases. 

1) In the first case (1995) the court held that it is not unconstitutional to restrict marriage to opposite sex couples, but did not say that a legislative decision to open up marriage for same sex couples would be unconstitutional. So it seemed that the court held that it was up to the legislator to decide. To some extent this decision was similar to the NY Court of Appeals decision in Hernandez v Robles: there is no constitutional right to same-sex marriage, but the legislature is free to allow same-sex marriage. (The religious right of course interprets this decision differently. In their reasoning, the const. court held that there is no const. right to same-sex marriage, so it follows that same-sex marriage is banned by the constitution. A rather strange conclusion, perhaps catholics should re-read the medieval scholastic treatises on logic.)

2) Then came the second case in 2007, when unfortunately the const. court ruled that same-sex marriage was unconstitutional. The court had to decide whether to allow a referendum on gay marriage or not. So the primary issue to be decided was whether a referendum can be held or not. Unfortunately this involved a ruling on the more substantial issue of whether same-sex marriage is constitutional or not.

So we kind of have a const. ban on gay marriage, although it is not explicitly in the constitution and a more open-minded court could revise and overrule the 2007 decision in future. Not likely in the near future of course.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In fact we have an &#8220;implicit&#8221; constitutional ban on gay marriage in Hungary. The HU constitution has a provision very similar to art. 29 of the Italian constitution, both protect familz and marriage. The HU const court interpreted this provision in 2 cases. </p>
<p>1) In the first case (1995) the court held that it is not unconstitutional to restrict marriage to opposite sex couples, but did not say that a legislative decision to open up marriage for same sex couples would be unconstitutional. So it seemed that the court held that it was up to the legislator to decide. To some extent this decision was similar to the NY Court of Appeals decision in Hernandez v Robles: there is no constitutional right to same-sex marriage, but the legislature is free to allow same-sex marriage. (The religious right of course interprets this decision differently. In their reasoning, the const. court held that there is no const. right to same-sex marriage, so it follows that same-sex marriage is banned by the constitution. A rather strange conclusion, perhaps catholics should re-read the medieval scholastic treatises on logic.)</p>
<p>2) Then came the second case in 2007, when unfortunately the const. court ruled that same-sex marriage was unconstitutional. The court had to decide whether to allow a referendum on gay marriage or not. So the primary issue to be decided was whether a referendum can be held or not. Unfortunately this involved a ruling on the more substantial issue of whether same-sex marriage is constitutional or not.</p>
<p>So we kind of have a const. ban on gay marriage, although it is not explicitly in the constitution and a more open-minded court could revise and overrule the 2007 decision in future. Not likely in the near future of course.</p>
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		<title>By: Hungarian</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-56698</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 17:59:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56698</guid>
		<description>Thx, I read them. I read LaRepubblica regularly, but never seen anything about this. I hope the procedure for amending the Italian constitution is not an easy one. In Hungary it can be done by 2/3 majority of the Parliament. Someone commented on the gay-forum.it that &quot;Per ora 56 senatori non fanno una gran paura.&quot;  Spero che non ci saranno piu.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thx, I read them. I read LaRepubblica regularly, but never seen anything about this. I hope the procedure for amending the Italian constitution is not an easy one. In Hungary it can be done by 2/3 majority of the Parliament. Someone commented on the gay-forum.it that &#8220;Per ora 56 senatori non fanno una gran paura.&#8221;  Spero che non ci saranno piu.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocco</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56680</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 16:43:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56680</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m really quite scared.  Nothing had been reported in English about this.  If anybody reads Italian here are some links: 
http://www.italiaoggi.it/giornali/dettaglio_giornali.asp?preview=false&amp;accessMode=FA&amp;id=1604307&amp;codiciTestate=1

http://www.gay-forum.it/forum/index.php?topic=16469.0

Vile whoring b*stards</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m really quite scared.  Nothing had been reported in English about this.  If anybody reads Italian here are some links:<br />
<a href="http://www.italiaoggi.it/giornali/dettaglio_giornali.asp?preview=false&amp;accessMode=FA&amp;id=1604307&amp;codiciTestate=1" rel="nofollow">http://www.italiaoggi.it/giornali/dettaglio_giornali.asp?preview=false&amp;accessMode=FA&amp;id=1604307&amp;codiciTestate=1</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.gay-forum.it/forum/index.php?topic=16469.0" rel="nofollow">http://www.gay-forum.it/forum/index.php?topic=16469.0</a></p>
<p>Vile whoring b*stards</p>
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		<title>By: Hungarian</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56678</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 16:35:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56678</guid>
		<description>And yes, Hungary is not a theocracy, thank G-d, but we would also need a Zapatero to strengthen the state/church divide. Spain is lucky to have such a Prime Minister. 

Unfortunately, the Socialist-Liberal (!) gov&#039;t of Hungary condcluded an agreement (a &quot;concordato&quot;) with the Vatican in 1997 which entitles the Catholic church to loads of money year by year. As a reparation for the nationalizing of their huge pre-WWII estates by the Communist state after WWII.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And yes, Hungary is not a theocracy, thank G-d, but we would also need a Zapatero to strengthen the state/church divide. Spain is lucky to have such a Prime Minister. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, the Socialist-Liberal (!) gov&#8217;t of Hungary condcluded an agreement (a &#8220;concordato&#8221;) with the Vatican in 1997 which entitles the Catholic church to loads of money year by year. As a reparation for the nationalizing of their huge pre-WWII estates by the Communist state after WWII.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocco</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56676</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 16:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Hungarian: perhaps in response to this case, the parliament is proposing an amendment to the Italian constitution to ban gay marriage.  So we will be like Latvia.  The best thing you can do for gay rights in Italy is to pack your suitcases while the Schengen treaty is still valid for Italy, and make it to a free country like Spain</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hungarian: perhaps in response to this case, the parliament is proposing an amendment to the Italian constitution to ban gay marriage.  So we will be like Latvia.  The best thing you can do for gay rights in Italy is to pack your suitcases while the Schengen treaty is still valid for Italy, and make it to a free country like Spain</p>
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		<title>By: Hungarian</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56674</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 16:07:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56674</guid>
		<description>@Rocco: Yes, I checked the website of the Italian Constitutional Court and they do seem to be exclusively men over 80 with one exception: a woman over 80. So I guess nothing can be expected from this Court. But the reasoning of the Venice court (Tribunale di Venezia) is quite impressive and very clear. 

http://static.ilsole24ore.com/G/GuidaDiritto/binary/10507117.13/10507117.pdf

Should the Corte costituzionale - by some miracle - rule in favour of gay marriage, Italy would become the first European country to introduce marriage equality by way of a judicial decision.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rocco: Yes, I checked the website of the Italian Constitutional Court and they do seem to be exclusively men over 80 with one exception: a woman over 80. So I guess nothing can be expected from this Court. But the reasoning of the Venice court (Tribunale di Venezia) is quite impressive and very clear. </p>
<p><a href="http://static.ilsole24ore.com/G/GuidaDiritto/binary/10507117.13/10507117.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://static.ilsole24ore.com/G/GuidaDiritto/binary/10507117.13/10507117.pdf</a></p>
<p>Should the Corte costituzionale &#8211; by some miracle &#8211; rule in favour of gay marriage, Italy would become the first European country to introduce marriage equality by way of a judicial decision.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Rocco</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56658</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 14:46:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56658</guid>
		<description>The problem in Italy is - aside from the gerontocracy of being ruled only by men minimum age 80 - is that it is ruled by another, smaller state within its borders whose infallible leader appointed by God is not elected and who calls the shots whether the left or the right is in power 
Maybe Hungary is majority Catholic but it&#039;s not a theocracy</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The problem in Italy is &#8211; aside from the gerontocracy of being ruled only by men minimum age 80 &#8211; is that it is ruled by another, smaller state within its borders whose infallible leader appointed by God is not elected and who calls the shots whether the left or the right is in power<br />
Maybe Hungary is majority Catholic but it&#8217;s not a theocracy</p>
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		<title>By: Hungarian</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56620</link>
		<dc:creator>Hungarian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 11:11:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56620</guid>
		<description>@Katie Murphy

well, actually the third post-communist/socialist country in cenral/eastern europe. beside the Czech Rep, Slovenia also introduced registered partnership in 2005/2006, although it seems that both the Czech and the Slovenian version of reg. partnership (civil union) offers much less in terms of rights&amp;obligations. 

Eg according to the ILGA Europe website the Slovenian reg partnership act &quot;does not grant any rights in the area of social security (social and health insurance, pension rights and so on), or provide partners with the status of a next-of-kin to one another&quot;. Interestingly, in Hungary even  non-registered domestic partners (whether of the same or opposite sex) have social security rights, eg the surviving partner is entitled to a widower&#039;s (widow&#039;s) pension. 

@Rocco and Drewski: True, but I think the Prodi gov&#039;t was also not much better with all the proposals to introduce some form of a domestic partnership giving rights to couples after 9 or so yrs of cohabitation. But I have just read on wikipedia that Italy&#039;s constitutional court will have to rule on gay marriage after a Venice court sent a case to the const. court in late April 2009.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Katie Murphy</p>
<p>well, actually the third post-communist/socialist country in cenral/eastern europe. beside the Czech Rep, Slovenia also introduced registered partnership in 2005/2006, although it seems that both the Czech and the Slovenian version of reg. partnership (civil union) offers much less in terms of rights&amp;obligations. </p>
<p>Eg according to the ILGA Europe website the Slovenian reg partnership act &#8220;does not grant any rights in the area of social security (social and health insurance, pension rights and so on), or provide partners with the status of a next-of-kin to one another&#8221;. Interestingly, in Hungary even  non-registered domestic partners (whether of the same or opposite sex) have social security rights, eg the surviving partner is entitled to a widower&#8217;s (widow&#8217;s) pension. </p>
<p>@Rocco and Drewski: True, but I think the Prodi gov&#8217;t was also not much better with all the proposals to introduce some form of a domestic partnership giving rights to couples after 9 or so yrs of cohabitation. But I have just read on wikipedia that Italy&#8217;s constitutional court will have to rule on gay marriage after a Venice court sent a case to the const. court in late April 2009.</p>
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		<title>By: drewski</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56602</link>
		<dc:creator>drewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 04:12:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56602</guid>
		<description>@Rocco--Much more likely in Italy when that crook Berlusconi is finally expelled from the government.  He&#039;s Italy&#039;s George W Bush.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Rocco&#8211;Much more likely in Italy when that crook Berlusconi is finally expelled from the government.  He&#8217;s Italy&#8217;s George W Bush.</p>
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		<title>By: Rocco</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/hungarian-gays-win-partnership-rights/comment-page-1/#comment-56600</link>
		<dc:creator>Rocco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 13 May 2009 04:01:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=7298#comment-56600</guid>
		<description>I wish we had this in Italy!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I wish we had this in Italy!</p>
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