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	<title>Comments on: Gay activists: Marriage secondary to basic rights</title>
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		<title>By: Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70528</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70528</guid>
		<description>Jacquemar,
Not all churches are homophobic. Mine certainly isn&#039;t or I wouldn&#039;t stay and my best friend wouldn&#039;t be one of its most important staff members.
No openly homophobic person will be allowed to run our church here in our DC suburb. The vestry is liberal and so are many of the parishioners and we just would not put up with an openly homophobic person in charge of our church nor put up with an openly homophobic direction for our church.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jacquemar,<br />
Not all churches are homophobic. Mine certainly isn&#8217;t or I wouldn&#8217;t stay and my best friend wouldn&#8217;t be one of its most important staff members.<br />
No openly homophobic person will be allowed to run our church here in our DC suburb. The vestry is liberal and so are many of the parishioners and we just would not put up with an openly homophobic person in charge of our church nor put up with an openly homophobic direction for our church.</p>
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		<title>By: Morgan</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70527</link>
		<dc:creator>Morgan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 03 Aug 2009 14:36:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70527</guid>
		<description>Speaking of marriage equality being very important with an GLBT equal rights organization and never second place....Here in Maryland, we have Equality Maryland, a strong and ever moving forward organization now repositioned from an obscure little side street in a DC Maryland suburb to the very heart of our state in Baltimore which is MD&#039;s largest and most important city with local colleges and University of Maryland students to draw on for youthful and energetic interns, volunteers, etc. EQMD has relocated there to have an even greater presence and impact on Maryland. And marriage equality at EQMD is never taking a back seat to other so-called more basic rights and things and is considered a basic right by EQMD along with rights and equality for transgender Marylanders and a number of other issues EQMD works on through the legislature in Annapolis etc to better the lives of MD LGBTs.

Marriage equality is very important for our LGBT couples both young and old to support each other at many different levels whether they would raising kids, and there are questions raised about relationship two same-sex parents have to a child complicating its care or in the hospital, at the doctor&#039;s office, etc Marriage equality or lack of it &quot;boomerangs&quot; into many, many areas of a couple&#039;s life right down to saying this house and this land belongs to this gay couple and does not belong to a birth family ravenous to snatch it all away from the survivor in a same-sex relationship where one partner dies. How about the young MD same-sex male couple in which one man became ill and died and he buried his mate where the man wanted to be put on his death all the while the man&#039;s birth family insisted on relocating his mate to WHERE THEY WANTED HIM TO GO and for years this heart-wrenching and financially exhausting legal battle to keep his crazy parents at bay...Here in Maryland we&#039;ve have many horrible and tragic stories stories about the results of marriage inequality 
that I can tell more of. Of one Maryland male couple one of whom is a male nurse who flies around in a helicopter to save people&#039;s lives and something that is potentially dangerous. He says that if he dies, you might as well take a chainsaw to everything and cut it in half as the family will swoop in and get it and his partner will out of luck.

There was a man who took his critically ill partner to a hospital and the hospital would not allow him to see his partner again as his partner was &quot;not family&quot; to him. He had to place a frantic call to his partner&#039;s family who instructed the hospital to allow him to visit his partner. It was too late. The man&#039;s eye were taped shut by the time he was allowed in to see him.

One MD man had to beg and plead and negotiate with his partner&#039;s father for the right to bury his own partner.

One woman was asked who are to her in her partner&#039;s hospital room. Her partner was going to soon give birth to a baby and the nurse told her point-blank to leave the room or her partner would not get a procedure she needed. Another time in the same couple, one the women was going to care for care for their child and to bond with the child while her partner was at work. She could not even take the child to the doctor&#039;s oiffice for a simple vaccination as SHE WAS NOT THE BIOLOGICAL MOTHER of this child. Everything this couple planned for had to go out the window. When a partner died here in Maryland, his or her partner might have to sell the property left to just to pay taxes a straight married couple leaving it to a surviving spouse would not to pay.  I can&#039;t remember if this MD law has changed regarding taxation on property left to a surviving same-sex partner. But a few good changes have to MD since Democrat Gov O&#039;Malley replaced GOP Governor Ehrlich under whose anti-GLBT watch just about nothing was possible for the MD LGBT community.

I reject the idea that marriage is a fun little nicety. There are enough cases just here in Maryland alone to prove that notion false. Marriage rights profoundly impact many things of a legal and medical nature for a same-sex couple here in our state and EQMD is diligently lobbying and educating our legislature, taking on our issue through the courts and addressing the media and holding yearly MD marriage rallies after which legislators are visited to highlight the needs of MD&#039;s GLBT community.

I am proud to be a member of EQMD and to support it with my arts and crafts donated to its silent auctions and with my time and money.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Speaking of marriage equality being very important with an GLBT equal rights organization and never second place&#8230;.Here in Maryland, we have Equality Maryland, a strong and ever moving forward organization now repositioned from an obscure little side street in a DC Maryland suburb to the very heart of our state in Baltimore which is MD&#8217;s largest and most important city with local colleges and University of Maryland students to draw on for youthful and energetic interns, volunteers, etc. EQMD has relocated there to have an even greater presence and impact on Maryland. And marriage equality at EQMD is never taking a back seat to other so-called more basic rights and things and is considered a basic right by EQMD along with rights and equality for transgender Marylanders and a number of other issues EQMD works on through the legislature in Annapolis etc to better the lives of MD LGBTs.</p>
<p>Marriage equality is very important for our LGBT couples both young and old to support each other at many different levels whether they would raising kids, and there are questions raised about relationship two same-sex parents have to a child complicating its care or in the hospital, at the doctor&#8217;s office, etc Marriage equality or lack of it &#8220;boomerangs&#8221; into many, many areas of a couple&#8217;s life right down to saying this house and this land belongs to this gay couple and does not belong to a birth family ravenous to snatch it all away from the survivor in a same-sex relationship where one partner dies. How about the young MD same-sex male couple in which one man became ill and died and he buried his mate where the man wanted to be put on his death all the while the man&#8217;s birth family insisted on relocating his mate to WHERE THEY WANTED HIM TO GO and for years this heart-wrenching and financially exhausting legal battle to keep his crazy parents at bay&#8230;Here in Maryland we&#8217;ve have many horrible and tragic stories stories about the results of marriage inequality<br />
that I can tell more of. Of one Maryland male couple one of whom is a male nurse who flies around in a helicopter to save people&#8217;s lives and something that is potentially dangerous. He says that if he dies, you might as well take a chainsaw to everything and cut it in half as the family will swoop in and get it and his partner will out of luck.</p>
<p>There was a man who took his critically ill partner to a hospital and the hospital would not allow him to see his partner again as his partner was &#8220;not family&#8221; to him. He had to place a frantic call to his partner&#8217;s family who instructed the hospital to allow him to visit his partner. It was too late. The man&#8217;s eye were taped shut by the time he was allowed in to see him.</p>
<p>One MD man had to beg and plead and negotiate with his partner&#8217;s father for the right to bury his own partner.</p>
<p>One woman was asked who are to her in her partner&#8217;s hospital room. Her partner was going to soon give birth to a baby and the nurse told her point-blank to leave the room or her partner would not get a procedure she needed. Another time in the same couple, one the women was going to care for care for their child and to bond with the child while her partner was at work. She could not even take the child to the doctor&#8217;s oiffice for a simple vaccination as SHE WAS NOT THE BIOLOGICAL MOTHER of this child. Everything this couple planned for had to go out the window. When a partner died here in Maryland, his or her partner might have to sell the property left to just to pay taxes a straight married couple leaving it to a surviving spouse would not to pay.  I can&#8217;t remember if this MD law has changed regarding taxation on property left to a surviving same-sex partner. But a few good changes have to MD since Democrat Gov O&#8217;Malley replaced GOP Governor Ehrlich under whose anti-GLBT watch just about nothing was possible for the MD LGBT community.</p>
<p>I reject the idea that marriage is a fun little nicety. There are enough cases just here in Maryland alone to prove that notion false. Marriage rights profoundly impact many things of a legal and medical nature for a same-sex couple here in our state and EQMD is diligently lobbying and educating our legislature, taking on our issue through the courts and addressing the media and holding yearly MD marriage rallies after which legislators are visited to highlight the needs of MD&#8217;s GLBT community.</p>
<p>I am proud to be a member of EQMD and to support it with my arts and crafts donated to its silent auctions and with my time and money.</p>
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		<title>By: commentor</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70475</link>
		<dc:creator>commentor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 02 Aug 2009 00:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70475</guid>
		<description>Jaquemar : Their bigotry IS exposed.  No one is trying to force churches to accept marriage equality.  Everyone is agreed to let each church define for itself what constitutes a marriage.  We&#039;ve always done so in this country.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jaquemar : Their bigotry IS exposed.  No one is trying to force churches to accept marriage equality.  Everyone is agreed to let each church define for itself what constitutes a marriage.  We&#8217;ve always done so in this country.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70471</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:23:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70471</guid>
		<description>&quot;What I don’t understand is why we have to have gay marriages but force Churches (who are obviously homophobic) to accept it. Sweden, with great ease, ratified Gay marriage, allowing the homophobic Christians to opt out if they wanted to… why can’t we do the same?&quot;

Laws in the six states legalizing same-sex marriage do allow homophobic Christians to opt out if they want to, so I&#039;m not sure who &quot;we&quot; refers to. We have the First Amendment; Christians are free to hate anyone they like. Getting that enshrined in civil law is another matter.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;What I don’t understand is why we have to have gay marriages but force Churches (who are obviously homophobic) to accept it. Sweden, with great ease, ratified Gay marriage, allowing the homophobic Christians to opt out if they wanted to… why can’t we do the same?&#8221;</p>
<p>Laws in the six states legalizing same-sex marriage do allow homophobic Christians to opt out if they want to, so I&#8217;m not sure who &#8220;we&#8221; refers to. We have the First Amendment; Christians are free to hate anyone they like. Getting that enshrined in civil law is another matter.</p>
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		<title>By: Mary Hayes</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70470</link>
		<dc:creator>Mary Hayes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 20:12:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70470</guid>
		<description>Unlike racial, ethnic and religious minorities, gay people aren&#039;t distinguished from the rest of the population by appearance, custom or belief. They&#039;re distinguished by the nature of one of the most basic of human relationships, which is being aggressively defined as opposite-sex only, with any variation being &#039;just for fun&#039; at best and a perversion comparable to bestiality or child molesting at worst. This is the foundation for the homophobic insistence that same-sex relationships are based on nothing but transitory physical pleasure; and legalized same-sex marriage is the #1 threat to that view and its social and legal consequences. It would be official, legal repudiation of it.

In that context, it doesn&#039;t matter what gains LGBT groups make in aspects such as insurance benefits and discrimination in hiring. As long as this basic devaluation of gays is enshrined in law, these gains can and will be challenged on the basis of civil rights protections not being appropriate for application to &quot;the gay lifestyle&quot; or even, God/dess help us &quot;same-sex attraction.&quot;  IMO these groups are whistling past the graveyard, hoping that if they just whistle musically enough, no ghoul is going to make an appearance. Anti-gay groups and their enablers, including those in the White House, are never, never, never going to change if gays are just nice and accommodating enough. Doesn&#039;t matter how long or how loudly they whistle.

Sadly, this article makes me wonder how many voters for Proposition 8 would self-identify as &quot;gay activists.&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unlike racial, ethnic and religious minorities, gay people aren&#8217;t distinguished from the rest of the population by appearance, custom or belief. They&#8217;re distinguished by the nature of one of the most basic of human relationships, which is being aggressively defined as opposite-sex only, with any variation being &#8216;just for fun&#8217; at best and a perversion comparable to bestiality or child molesting at worst. This is the foundation for the homophobic insistence that same-sex relationships are based on nothing but transitory physical pleasure; and legalized same-sex marriage is the #1 threat to that view and its social and legal consequences. It would be official, legal repudiation of it.</p>
<p>In that context, it doesn&#8217;t matter what gains LGBT groups make in aspects such as insurance benefits and discrimination in hiring. As long as this basic devaluation of gays is enshrined in law, these gains can and will be challenged on the basis of civil rights protections not being appropriate for application to &#8220;the gay lifestyle&#8221; or even, God/dess help us &#8220;same-sex attraction.&#8221;  IMO these groups are whistling past the graveyard, hoping that if they just whistle musically enough, no ghoul is going to make an appearance. Anti-gay groups and their enablers, including those in the White House, are never, never, never going to change if gays are just nice and accommodating enough. Doesn&#8217;t matter how long or how loudly they whistle.</p>
<p>Sadly, this article makes me wonder how many voters for Proposition 8 would self-identify as &#8220;gay activists.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Drewski</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70461</link>
		<dc:creator>Drewski</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 04:10:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70461</guid>
		<description>@phoenixmd--you don&#039;t get it.  The majority of the population is married at some point in life.  That&#039;s an unalterable fact.  You seem to want to argue for the reality of a minority, but much of the marriage argument is about joining the majority.  There are many gays who have argued that we&#039;re not equipped for monogamy, that we have different and culturally-variant institutions--those arguments won&#039;t do a damn thing for you when you want HR to give you and your legally-unattached &quot;partner&quot; the same benefits as a married couple.  There is no justification for forcing the majority of society to recognize new and very dubious cultural institutions.  Ultimately it becomes a matter of gay navel-gazing and narcissism.  In order to get the same, we just might have to do the same.  No spousal benefits unless you get married.  Tens of millions of people in this country have health insurance through their spouse&#039;s employer, and there&#039;s no justification for creating little nooks and crannies in the eligbility process when you can have what Bill and Suzie have if you, John, marry your boyfriend Ted.

Ohio has a nondiscrimination bill in the legislature now.  In today&#039;s Plain Dealer, the Ohio Christian Alliance is quoted as opposing the bill because they say gay is a choice that shouldn&#039;t be legally protected.  This is an article in one of the largest papers in the US--you might think they&#039;d have a slightly higher journalistic standard than quoting the Wingnut Brigade.  In fact, they seemed to angle for a quote from the Wingnuts even more than they wanted a quote from the Speaker of the GOP-controlled Senate.  The bill looks likely to pass the House, but there&#039;s a good chance it&#039;ll fail in the Senate because even mainstream media give credence to the Christian Right.  Gays haven&#039;t been especially good at questioning that poor journalistic practice.

Would it be better to focus on marriage in Ohio?  Ohio has so many antigay laws, on paper it&#039;s worse than almost every state in the Deep South.  Reality isn&#039;t quite that bad, and Ohio is an &quot;at-will&quot; state (a step above right to work), but we need to push on all fronts.  No way marriage will come to Ohio without DOMA repeal, but something that a lot of people don&#039;t understand is that country folk can shift their views pretty radically when something brings harm to their own.  Get rid of DADT and yes, you will see more acceptance of gays, especially in rural Ohio, in rural parts of most other states too.  In states like Ohio, marriage is only a glimmer, but we&#039;re far more likely to make progress if at least we&#039;re not fighting at both federal and state level.  Removing the federal obstacles would be a direct benefit (see above re: DADT), and it would allow us in Ohio to make progress in all areas, whether it&#039;s marriage or other civil rights issues.  This is a Gordian knot, and all the struggles combine with local factors in different ways in each state, in parts of each state too.  Sometimes national organizations seem to not fully appreciate that fact.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@phoenixmd&#8211;you don&#8217;t get it.  The majority of the population is married at some point in life.  That&#8217;s an unalterable fact.  You seem to want to argue for the reality of a minority, but much of the marriage argument is about joining the majority.  There are many gays who have argued that we&#8217;re not equipped for monogamy, that we have different and culturally-variant institutions&#8211;those arguments won&#8217;t do a damn thing for you when you want HR to give you and your legally-unattached &#8220;partner&#8221; the same benefits as a married couple.  There is no justification for forcing the majority of society to recognize new and very dubious cultural institutions.  Ultimately it becomes a matter of gay navel-gazing and narcissism.  In order to get the same, we just might have to do the same.  No spousal benefits unless you get married.  Tens of millions of people in this country have health insurance through their spouse&#8217;s employer, and there&#8217;s no justification for creating little nooks and crannies in the eligbility process when you can have what Bill and Suzie have if you, John, marry your boyfriend Ted.</p>
<p>Ohio has a nondiscrimination bill in the legislature now.  In today&#8217;s Plain Dealer, the Ohio Christian Alliance is quoted as opposing the bill because they say gay is a choice that shouldn&#8217;t be legally protected.  This is an article in one of the largest papers in the US&#8211;you might think they&#8217;d have a slightly higher journalistic standard than quoting the Wingnut Brigade.  In fact, they seemed to angle for a quote from the Wingnuts even more than they wanted a quote from the Speaker of the GOP-controlled Senate.  The bill looks likely to pass the House, but there&#8217;s a good chance it&#8217;ll fail in the Senate because even mainstream media give credence to the Christian Right.  Gays haven&#8217;t been especially good at questioning that poor journalistic practice.</p>
<p>Would it be better to focus on marriage in Ohio?  Ohio has so many antigay laws, on paper it&#8217;s worse than almost every state in the Deep South.  Reality isn&#8217;t quite that bad, and Ohio is an &#8220;at-will&#8221; state (a step above right to work), but we need to push on all fronts.  No way marriage will come to Ohio without DOMA repeal, but something that a lot of people don&#8217;t understand is that country folk can shift their views pretty radically when something brings harm to their own.  Get rid of DADT and yes, you will see more acceptance of gays, especially in rural Ohio, in rural parts of most other states too.  In states like Ohio, marriage is only a glimmer, but we&#8217;re far more likely to make progress if at least we&#8217;re not fighting at both federal and state level.  Removing the federal obstacles would be a direct benefit (see above re: DADT), and it would allow us in Ohio to make progress in all areas, whether it&#8217;s marriage or other civil rights issues.  This is a Gordian knot, and all the struggles combine with local factors in different ways in each state, in parts of each state too.  Sometimes national organizations seem to not fully appreciate that fact.</p>
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		<title>By: JonnyBoy</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70458</link>
		<dc:creator>JonnyBoy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Aug 2009 01:01:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70458</guid>
		<description>The challenge, Jacquemar, is that churches never have to recognize our relationships as valid.  However, they cannot run their organizations with tax breaks if they insist on descriminating against us.  They won&#039;t have to officiate in our weddings, but they will have to give us access to places that anyone else would have access.  If only their members can get married in their church, then we wouldn&#039;t get married their.  If they rent their church out to any straight couple, regardless of religion, then we should be allowed to use the building.

It&#039;s a matter of tax liability, not approval.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The challenge, Jacquemar, is that churches never have to recognize our relationships as valid.  However, they cannot run their organizations with tax breaks if they insist on descriminating against us.  They won&#8217;t have to officiate in our weddings, but they will have to give us access to places that anyone else would have access.  If only their members can get married in their church, then we wouldn&#8217;t get married their.  If they rent their church out to any straight couple, regardless of religion, then we should be allowed to use the building.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a matter of tax liability, not approval.</p>
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		<title>By: Jacquemar</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70448</link>
		<dc:creator>Jacquemar</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 23:07:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70448</guid>
		<description>What I don&#039;t understand is why we have to have gay marriages but force Churches (who are obviously homophobic) to accept it.  Sweden, with great ease, ratified Gay marriage, allowing the homophobic Christians to opt out if they wanted to... why can&#039;t we do the same?  I personally don&#039;t care one way or the other if the Evangelicals want to marry us in the eyes of their God.  On top of that if we allowed Churches to opt out and they still opposed gay marriage, their bigotry would be exposed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What I don&#8217;t understand is why we have to have gay marriages but force Churches (who are obviously homophobic) to accept it.  Sweden, with great ease, ratified Gay marriage, allowing the homophobic Christians to opt out if they wanted to&#8230; why can&#8217;t we do the same?  I personally don&#8217;t care one way or the other if the Evangelicals want to marry us in the eyes of their God.  On top of that if we allowed Churches to opt out and they still opposed gay marriage, their bigotry would be exposed.</p>
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		<title>By: BittenByAZebra</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70447</link>
		<dc:creator>BittenByAZebra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 23:05:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70447</guid>
		<description>Sexual orientation discrimination does indeed continue to happen today -- even in NYC: http://tinyurl.com/my4mck</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sexual orientation discrimination does indeed continue to happen today &#8212; even in NYC: <a href="http://tinyurl.com/my4mck" rel="nofollow">http://tinyurl.com/my4mck</a></p>
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		<title>By: phoenixmd</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/gay-activists-marriage-secondary-to-basic-rights/comment-page-2/#comment-70435</link>
		<dc:creator>phoenixmd</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Jul 2009 20:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=8897#comment-70435</guid>
		<description>I won&#039;t debate over which set of rights is more important than the other, but basic individual rights are certainly more inclusive than marriage rights.  Think about it -- how does marriage equality benefit gay people who are single or disinterested in long-term relationships?  Laws against housing/job discrimination will help all gay people, whether or not they are in a relationship.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I won&#8217;t debate over which set of rights is more important than the other, but basic individual rights are certainly more inclusive than marriage rights.  Think about it &#8212; how does marriage equality benefit gay people who are single or disinterested in long-term relationships?  Laws against housing/job discrimination will help all gay people, whether or not they are in a relationship.</p>
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