John Murtha, a Pennsylvania Democrat and generally a social conservative, nonetheless voted for the Employment Non-Discrimination Act and for the hate crimes bill. He voted against banning gay...0
Check out the interview with ex-Mormon and Milk screenwriter Dustin Lance Black on how the latest move by the Mormon Church may be a signal the religion is shifting on gay rights:
When you have some kind of personal connection (past or present), it is far easier to receive such news with hope and relief rather than skepticism.
Much of the time, when people disaffiliate with the LDS Church, it’s not because they’re no longer Mormons – it’s because they cannot in good conscience support an organization of people that’s getting overly involved in political matters and taking such a far-right line on sociopolitical and cultural issues. It alienates the progressive wing.
It’s gay rights activists like these who help achieve the most difficult (and sometimes the most miraculous) gay rights progress in places as conservative as Utah. In a place like Utah, where appearances and pleasantries are often instantly judged with a greater weight than being good or right, it’s always been hard to win over anyone’s minds or hearts with brute force – it causes other people only to harden as much as you try.
It’s been strange how the most successful gay rights victories here thus far have involved clandestine meetings (to maintain appearances) ad other gestures that first treat conservative Mormons with respect, dignity and relative sensitivity, rather than with hostility. It’s lost on no one that people of differing sides can have very opposite ideas of how things should be. And even after, people will still believe what they want to believe and not believe what they don’t want to believe. But that’s Utah, a very peculiar place. It’s very culturally distinct, very English, and very, very Victorian. (Not surprising, as the bulk of Utah’s ancestry were immigrants from 19th century Victorian England, and Utah still takes victorian notions of morality more seriously than almost anywhere.) Loud, noisy and rude things tend to alienate the uptight masses as they continue to maintain their perfectly-manicured stepford smiles. Sometimes to get concessions, you have to play ball and maintain the pleasantries, courtesies and etiquette, even if you don’t like each other.
So, if you know Utah Mormon society well enough, you know just why some people react to such news more with hope and relief than with skepticism and suspicion. Not that there isn’t skepticism or suspicion – they’re just more muted. People tend to want to keep up an appearance of niceness, even if they’d rather skin you alive and mount your head as a trophy.
Wayne M. Said:November 12th, 2009 at 5:18 pm
I cannot be quite so thrilled with the position taken by the Mormon church. They still take a position that Lesbians and Gay men should live in celibacy outside of marriage and yet deny us the right to marry at the same time. They say the position of celibacy outside marriage is the same as the position they take for heterosexuals. This is not true since they do not deny heterosexuals the right to marry.
D R Said:November 12th, 2009 at 7:58 pm
As a mormon missionary and BYU student, I knew so many Utah mormons who smiled a lot but held totally racist attitudes. Just because the church changed its position on blacks holding the priesthood, this changed nothing for a lot of people. Based on my experiences in the church, I greet this news with deep scepticism. The church is BIG on PR, even at the expense of people.
Thomas Said:November 12th, 2009 at 10:40 pm
This is an example of the Trojan Horse. They’ll let us in so they can work their evil and oppress us as a faux community. I may be “welcome” in their world (conditions attached I’m sure) but they aren’t welcome in mine.
tjr Said:November 12th, 2009 at 11:57 pm
OH Pleeeassssse… the mormon church shifts for no one. This is all a sham to soften their image. Any religion than only recently stopped claiming blacks to be inferior can NOT and should NOT be trusted. BIGOTS they are.
Alex_Parrish,
Even though as a gay Christian, I permanently left atheism behind, I believe firmly in separation of church and state, believe that religion is not science,...
When you have some kind of personal connection (past or present), it is far easier to receive such news with hope and relief rather than skepticism.
Much of the time, when people disaffiliate with the LDS Church, it’s not because they’re no longer Mormons – it’s because they cannot in good conscience support an organization of people that’s getting overly involved in political matters and taking such a far-right line on sociopolitical and cultural issues. It alienates the progressive wing.
It’s gay rights activists like these who help achieve the most difficult (and sometimes the most miraculous) gay rights progress in places as conservative as Utah. In a place like Utah, where appearances and pleasantries are often instantly judged with a greater weight than being good or right, it’s always been hard to win over anyone’s minds or hearts with brute force – it causes other people only to harden as much as you try.
It’s been strange how the most successful gay rights victories here thus far have involved clandestine meetings (to maintain appearances) ad other gestures that first treat conservative Mormons with respect, dignity and relative sensitivity, rather than with hostility. It’s lost on no one that people of differing sides can have very opposite ideas of how things should be. And even after, people will still believe what they want to believe and not believe what they don’t want to believe. But that’s Utah, a very peculiar place. It’s very culturally distinct, very English, and very, very Victorian. (Not surprising, as the bulk of Utah’s ancestry were immigrants from 19th century Victorian England, and Utah still takes victorian notions of morality more seriously than almost anywhere.) Loud, noisy and rude things tend to alienate the uptight masses as they continue to maintain their perfectly-manicured stepford smiles. Sometimes to get concessions, you have to play ball and maintain the pleasantries, courtesies and etiquette, even if you don’t like each other.
So, if you know Utah Mormon society well enough, you know just why some people react to such news more with hope and relief than with skepticism and suspicion. Not that there isn’t skepticism or suspicion – they’re just more muted. People tend to want to keep up an appearance of niceness, even if they’d rather skin you alive and mount your head as a trophy.
I cannot be quite so thrilled with the position taken by the Mormon church. They still take a position that Lesbians and Gay men should live in celibacy outside of marriage and yet deny us the right to marry at the same time. They say the position of celibacy outside marriage is the same as the position they take for heterosexuals. This is not true since they do not deny heterosexuals the right to marry.
As a mormon missionary and BYU student, I knew so many Utah mormons who smiled a lot but held totally racist attitudes. Just because the church changed its position on blacks holding the priesthood, this changed nothing for a lot of people. Based on my experiences in the church, I greet this news with deep scepticism. The church is BIG on PR, even at the expense of people.
This is an example of the Trojan Horse. They’ll let us in so they can work their evil and oppress us as a faux community. I may be “welcome” in their world (conditions attached I’m sure) but they aren’t welcome in mine.
OH Pleeeassssse… the mormon church shifts for no one. This is all a sham to soften their image. Any religion than only recently stopped claiming blacks to be inferior can NOT and should NOT be trusted. BIGOTS they are.
I don’t understand how people fall for this. This was a PR thing! The law was gonna pass anyways.
The Mormon Church is full of loonies.
I would be MORE thrilled if the sons-of-bitches just stayed OUT of the political arena altogether.
They stole all my clothes, and then gave back only my brief, how can I thank them. This happen be cause Mormon member Michael Pratt, a LDS seminary principal, sexual abused 16 yearold schoolgirl. ( http://www.fox13now.com/videobeta/watch/?watch=17f27dcc-24c4-4c54-a900-a3599d9c5ea5&src=front )