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Loading ...Conservative Lutheran leader critical of gay clergy plan
02.25.2009 2:04pm EST
(St. Louis, Missouri) The president of the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod expressed “great disappointment and deep sadness” over a proposal that would allow gays and lesbians in committed relationships to serve as clergy in the larger and more liberal Evangelical Lutheran Church in America.
Gerald B. Kieschnick, in a letter to his 2.5 million-member denomination, said the change “would constitute a radical departure from the 2,000-year-long teaching of the Christian tradition that homosexual activity, whether inside or outside of a committed relationship, is contrary to Holy Scripture.”In 2001, the Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod adopted a resolution saying it does not consider the Chicago-based Evangelical Lutheran Church in America to be “an orthodox Lutheran church body” but recognizes that many members of the larger denomination “remain faithful” to the Christian Gospel.
Last week, a task force of the 4.7 million-member Evangelical Lutheran Church in America issued a series of recommendations that could lead to lifting a ban on non-celibate gay clergy.
The task force acknowledged a lack of consensus on the issue and proposed that congregations and synods, or regional church bodies, be given “structured flexibility” to decide whether to hire people in “lifelong, monogamous, same-gender committed relationships” as clergy.
The recommendations, which may be revised in the coming months, will be considered at the denomination’s biannual convention in Minneapolis this August.
Please explain why a gay person would want to work for a church in the first place? Groups that use fairy tales to justify bigotry against anyone are simply disgusting…but to support them when you are the target of that bigotry is beyond reason.
I really feal sorry for religious gays that are as brainwashed as straights into believing the judgement day/heaven crap. They seem to be more brainwashed…like a puppy going back to its abuser.
If you give religion money you are complicit in the rantings of all those jerks that live high on the hog due to trailer trash supporting them. Stop supporting the hate machine!
I’m not sure why this is even news. The Lutheran Church-Missouri Synod (LCMS) is so sure they have a direct pipeline to God’s intentions that they won’t even share Holy Communion with other Lutherans. These folks are literalists of the worst kind and the fact that they hate Gays is not news to anyone.
If there are any Gays left in the LCMS they are closeted and self-loathing beings and there is little hope for them. The LCMS really should be classified as a ‘Cult” – they strive to separate themselves from other Christians, and brainwash their subjects in their parochial schools and push for home-schooling. In every area, they fit a classic definition of a cult.
In any event, any pronouncement from LCMS is irrelevant — even to other Lutherans. Why even bother to report it? It’s like reporting that Fred Phelps is not fond of gays.
Why is this story important?
First point, Dave. I don’t think religion will ever go out of style. Call it a crutch, call it whatever. I believe that many people feel compelled to be spiritual in one or more of several different ways. This includes us gays too.
Sadly the state of things today, is that MOST religions don’t approve on some level, homosexual relationships. Sure there is the MCC, and many UCC churches. I believe Buddhism is mostly non-caring about it. If you don’t live near one of those churches or believe the way that they connect with spirituality, then your only other option is to be a part of a church that quite simply doesn’t like you.
Here is my second major point. One of the best ways to change something is from the inside. Northerners couldn’t change Southern racism. Blacks (and whites) had to do that from inside the South. We can’t change the way the Mid East feels about us by going over there with our military, that’s something that has to be changed in their minds and hearts. If you want to loose weight or make other accomplishments, you first have to have the internal mindset that it is possible. This same scenario plays over and over.
Let’s take to be truth, that (a)some people just need religion, and that (b)change is easier from the inside out. Where would the Episcopals be without Gene Robinson? He’s started opening the way for gays in that denomination. By the fact that this story talks about gays serving openly, I take it that “celibate” gays serve in the Lutheran Church.
Assume a third thing to be true, that (c) churches tend to run a large part of the American political agenda. The only way we will (can) gain full equality in America is if we can convince churches (or at least a handful of larger denominations) that we are ok, there is nothing to fear from us. We potentially have that Presbyterian USA (currently voting), and now the Lutheran Church. I believe it’s because we’ve “infiltrated” the ranks, made enough of them feel comfortable with us and let them know that we are not going away…and then comes recognition and rights….that is why this story is important.
Clay — You have missed my point completely. My point is that the cult known as the LCMS does not represent the viewpoint of most mainstream Lutherans. The Evangelical Lutheran Church in America (ELCA) is already on the road towards full acceptance of gays — they are not there yet, but they are definitely moving in that direction. The LCMS cult is so exclusive that opportunities to infiltrate or change it from within are virtually non-existent.
The LCMS is a cult, pure and simple, and dialog with them is a non-option. That’s going to have to be accepted, but because they are irrelevant to mainstream Lutheranism, the best gains can be made by not giving them a public platform to spew their hate and propaganda.
“Holy Scripture”? Oh, you mean that man made book of magical fairytales that has been been rewritten numerous times?
Dave, your hysterical hyperbole is as narrow minded and short-sighted as those who you condemn.
There are many Christian churches (and clergy), as well as man Jewish temples (and rabbis) that support, sanction and support same sex marriage. You denigrate these brave leaders (albeit often behind-scenes) who have broken walls within the religious community to bring equality to all.
If you push all religions, churches and clergy into the same category as the bigoted and ignorant, you are doing just what anti-gay hate mongers do when they paint all gays as promiscuous, AIDS-ridden parasites and pedophiles.
I belive, in fighting bigotry and hate, we must be better than those who would oppress us. We shouldn’t get down in the gutter and wallow in the filth with them.
I realize that Barbie thinks math is hard, but why is it that Gays think educating themselves about religious text is too hard? For one, I don’t care if you believe in any text, but is it too hard to learn the rest of the story of the text that these militantly religious ignorant people don’t want you to know about? Most of these religious people refuse to admit they are going to hell for eating Lobster, and shrimp. Does anyone hear them protesting Lobster fest? NO!? Check it out on the web about abomination and shrimp.
Does anyone talk about God destroying a city in the Old Testament because he hate’s heterosexuals? No? This other city did the same thing as the one the militant ignorant uses to condemn gays, except it was a woman who got raped and God did the Hell and brimstone thing on that town. The Militant Ignorant don’t say anything about that. Why?
There’s more, but that requires people to do some reading and education. I know it’s more fun to party, get wasted, do pride, and protest Yes on 8. Mean while, there are authors out there that have already done the leg work for you, even put some of the knowledge in some fiction so you don’t have to break a sweat on your treadmill, or in your steam bath. Try opening up something from Robin Reardon like “Thinking Straight.”. You might find a way of confronting the militant in Religious White Robes. Oh! Wait, that’s work! And it hard! I guess the plastic girl wins again.
Dave W from Seattle has a good point.
We may be able to sway some people in the middle, like those that admit the World was not made in 6 literal days, or admit that dinasours did roam the Earth.
However there are some Hateful Church Lady types that will not listen to reason or debate if it goes against what their Pastor or Bishop has spoon fed them. Many Church People barely read the “good book” at all.
There are many many social justice type passages that never get quoted by the GOP or religious right.
Tom in Long Beach
Most people believe in some sort of religion. The ones who don’t can generally tell you that they just don’t have the impulse. There is some research to suggest that god is something the majority of the population is hard-wired for. It is what it is.
There are many existing works dealing with the BS factor in modern churches, and how that BS came to be (one example–go find a book on how the Council of Nicea turned Christianity into a mysogynist cult, NOT what early writings promoted). In Islam, the argument goes that the Quran is sacrosanct because Allah gave it to Muhammed in a perfect, final form–there have been no revisions. That’s clearly untrue, as there are ancient copies of the Quran which don’t say the same thing as each other or as today’s Quran. Religion is a uniting force, but it also unites by defining and excluding the Other.
I don’t have a religious impulse. I do think that it’s sad that something in which people find beauty and solace and companionship, that thing is too often turned into a weapon or a tool of petty judgment.
ELCA versus Missouri Synod–they’re both Lutheran, yet one seems to think it’s so purely Lutheran that it can’t share communion with slightly different Lutherans? It sounds so hig-school cafeteria, y’know? Those things do hurt people, and what makes it rankle is that there are people being rejected in the erstwhile name of love. In what text, what book of the Bible, did Jesus ever explicitly choose rejection of people who came with an open heart? None. Never.
Gerald B. Kieschnick,… said the change “would constitute a radical departure from the 2,000-year-long teaching of the Christian tradition that…”
They’re not concerned about a departure from what the Bible actually says on the subject (virtually nothing). They’re only concerned that it departs from their tradition.
The religious leadership falls into the same camp as that identified by David W. earlier . . . they don’t want to put the work in to find out what the bible says. Their tradition is good enough for them.
Gerald B. Kieschnick … said the change “would constitute a radical departure from the 2,000-year-long teaching of the Christian tradition that homosexual activity, whether inside or outside of a committed relationship, is contrary to Holy Scripture.”
Kieschnick is either deliberately lying or he has no idea what he’s talking about. Both Leviticus and Romans call homosexuality “unclean” – toevah in the Old Testament and akatharsia in the New Testament. And in Romans 14:14, Paul wrote, “I know and am convicted in the Lord Jesus that there is nothing unclean in itself, but to him for whom it is unclean, to him it is unclean.”
Likewise, Jesus said that uncleanness, which he called impurity, does not defile a person. The only exception is impurity of the heart, which has nothing to do with homosexuality but, rather, leads to inherently wrongful behavior such as murder, theft, adultery, and covetousness. Most of these acts involve taking what belongs to another person or trying to get more than another person has. James includes favoritism in this category as well. Today, we might use the word discrimination.
Kieschnick is also wrong about the roughly 2,000 years since the New Testament period. The belief that homosexuality is wrong did not become dominant in the church until the early 13th century, so it certainly hasn’t lasted 2,000 years.
Antigay Christians support their bigotry chiefly by misrepresenting the Bible. I suggest that finding out what the Bible really says about homosexuality – and making it known – is key to ending religious discrimination in the US. The paragraphs above are only a brief summary, but plenty of information is available. Daniel Helminiak’s short book What the Bible Really Says About Homosexuality is a good, brief summary. L. William Countryman’s Dirt, Greed, and Sex: Sexual Ethics in the New Testament and Their Implications for Today is much more thorough. It answered my lingering questions from Helminiak, and it’s extremely difficult to refute. Only parts of it address homosexuality directly, but the rest of it strengthens the case being presented. Finally, John Boswell’s classic Christianity, Social Tolerance, and Homosexuality covers homosexuality in the history of the Christian church.
The view that homosexuality is a sin is starting to crumble as people learn more. We can further its demise by educating ourselves and others. Loving, thoughtful Christians can be especially helpful in this process. I agree with another poster who said that being intolerant toward others on the basis of their religion really does more harm than good. We’ll be most effective if we avoid the hate and stridence that are turning people off to the religious right.
Alex,
While I agree that LCMC is hardline conservative, I will have to disagree with your “cult” status. We are no more strict that the Catholic church.
Second, I am neither closeted or self loathing and I love my church. I know they have a lot of things wrong, but I more interested in trying to convince those people to see it differently.
Hold on here! I have to step in here one more time! I just read someone saying their church is no more strict then the Catholic Church? What does that have to do with anything? The Catholic Church has turn a blind eye on many Social injustices in the name of being right. Do I need to remind any one here this was the same Church that has priest that claim the Holocaust never happened, and never mind all the sex scandals? Yes, 6 million Jews died in the Holocaust. But for us who are gay and lesbian, do you understand that 3 million of our brothers and sisters died in that horror, along with others? And the Main reason the Catholic Church sided up with the Nazis was in case the Nazis won the church could stay in power? …no more strict… hu?… WTF!?! This is what and why I am talking about education yourself. The fact that 70% of pre Nazi Germany was either Catholic or Lutheran says something about these two branches of faith and what was allowed to happen. Yes, there was one Lutheran minister that Hitler was afraid of, because the guy could not keep his mouth shut about injustice. But where were the rest of the Lutheran ministers? Where were the Catholic priests and it’s church? When the Catholic Bishop in South America was killed because he could not keep his mouth shut on social injustice, where was the pope and the rest of Catholic Church? Hiding in the closet? No, they were siding up with the rulers who were doing the social injustices, and trying to squelch this Bishop. Where were the Lutherans? They were just not part of the picture. Just because you don’t believe in these institutions or some Protestant variant does not mean keeping yourself in the dark will protect you from their handy work or their self serving believe system. I also need to point out that not all religious/churches are the same either. The Seattle First Baptist (S.F.B)(American Baptist) opened its doors to the gay community when Matthew Shepard died so the gay community could grieve, and they have been very supportive of the gay community here in Seattle. But on the other hand, the Southern Baptist has that Kansas closet case preacher who can’t pull his head out of his Ignorant text, who comes to S.F.B to protest once a year. Again I ask why can’t the gay community educate themselves on the issues around us so we don’t fall in the trap of engaging in self serving believe systems? Why can’t we fight social injustice, both inside of our community and outside of our community? Oh we have our one “Minister” here or there that the militant ignorant are afraid of. But I would think if we acted as a whole, the only place militant ignorant would be accepted at would be at Klan rallies.
One church at a time, many are moving to equality for gays. Sure the catholic heirarchy (there are many priests who support gays but are “closeted” about it lest their nazi leader and his Bishopfuhrer assistants toss their ass out in the street) forget them, forget the southern baptists- architects of slavery and segregation, etc. And the Mormon heirarchy – their name hardly tells the truth about them -it is spelled wrong.
But you have Jewish reform, some jewish conservatives, MCC, most of the UUs, about half of the UCC, as supportive. Also Quakers – not a real pound the enemy into the ground type group, though.The Episcopalians are definitely moving in the right direction, if only they would simply tell England etc to GTH. They would be 90% or more onboard. Now the ELCA, which is the liberal Lutherans,are definitely moving in the right direction, and there are presbyterians moving also – I saw something quite recently in this regard, re the Presbyterian church USA becoming more liberal, and I thought they were the more conservative Pres group.
Ultimately there will be a large number of churches supporting gay people, and in some form gay relationships, while the old ladies in Rome, masturbating in their fancy dresses, and speaking from their reversed alimentary canals, will never change till the money dries up. The same for the Mormons, though there is some movement by younger mormons to liberalize the control freaks that rule their church.
No easy solution, but keep your eye, and your action on the eight ball, while always trying to drive the fairness and justice message to good religious people who really don’t understand the issues.
And surprisingly, I know a number of catholics, all educated, mostly young but some older, who support “all the rights and responsibilites of marriage for gays”, but just please don’t call it marriage. They may go to church, but they don’t vote per the church
This is progress. If only I could live long enough to see the Vatican turned into a monument showing what it has been over the ages – a museum dedicated to showing how a religion became the longest living monstrosity of the western world. The cause of endless wars and exterminations, all in their corrupted view of God, which in Latin must be named POWER.
And someone is right about the church and the Nazis – all these types want is power and money, the rest is hype and BS. Of course, who but the Catholic church poisoned humanity with the hatred of the Jews. Which gave hitler the lever to gain total power, the rest we all understand, except for Rome. And they proved it again by electing a Pope who said seig heil in his youth, and obviously still is poisoned by that type of (ir)rationality.
But you have to have your eye on the eight ball, and fight the winnable battles now, that will strengthen you for the more difficult ones in the future, while weakening the enemy.
BTW, Some people really believe DAVE W, re your comments. Maybe they think they can cure the church, though I think it isn’t worth curing. It is only a spreader of induced mental illness.
And what gave us 9/11 – a society poisoned by 600 years of 14 Christian Crusades, which in the “name of God” murdered possibly as many as 50 million Muslims. It poisoned their society – language wise, writing wise, religious wise – the whole culture. And just as the Catholic church gave hitler the lever for ultimate power – hatred of jews to gain total power, the catholic church combined with corrupt kings and emperors poisoned that society.
Making it so easy for a maniac named Bin Laden to recruit some people and give them flying lessons, but not landing lessons.
I am LCMS and it is not a cult. I know because I spent my young life in an Armstrong cult and LCMS saved me from that. By the way, what is the difference between a recovering alcoholic and a recovering homosexual? Both are condemned in the Bible, but we expect the alcoholic to give up alcohol, why not the gay to give up same sex for the love of Christ and looking forward to the next life with Christ?