Comments on: Breakaway Episcopal bishop ousted

By: Hopper

Hopper — Thu, 23 Oct 2008 23:30:08 +0000

But rjb … the Anglican Communion is NOT a Church … it is a communion of Churches … 44 distinct and separate “member churches”. Moreover, until very recently there were few problems between conservative & liberal member churches of the Anglican Communion. In fact, these churches have long been known for their civility despite a diversity of viewpoints.

But enter conservative America’s Institute on Religion and Democracy which seeks to “restructure the permanent governing structure” of “theologically flawed” Protestant denominations and to “discredit and diminish the Religious Left’s influence.” Supported by the financial backing of Howard Ahmanson, Jr … as well as funds from foundations including those of Lynde and Harry Bradley, Adolph Coors, John M. Olin (which has now ceased operation), the Smith-Richardson Trust, and the Scaife Family … the IRD is funding the highly visible and divisive opposition to the Episcopal Church within the Anglican Communion.

Led by a relatively small group — including Duncan, Iker, & Martin Minns … who want things their way or no way — the minority conservative/fundamentalist Episcopalians have actively spurred leaders of the Anglican Communion’s more conservative member churches … primarily Nigeria, Uganda, Rwanda, Southern Cone (parts of South America), Kenya and a few others — 7 to 8 of the 44 — to move against the more liberal Episcopal Church and take under wing our more conservative parishes and even entire dioceses (2 currently … and 2 more in the near future) … and, of course, the assets of each.

Ultimately the conservatives want the Episcopal Church removed from the Anglican Communion … to be replaced by a “more traditional” fundamentalist church … one more open to authoritarian forms of government … one that adheres to “the One True Way” version of Christianity.

Why, when a new press release is issued by one of suddenly overtly vocal leaders of one a conservative member church in Africa … one can easily detect the trans-Atlantic editing by American conservatives. Style is hard to suppress when the ego is so … uhhh … large.

Of course they won’t stop with the Episcopal Church … so this battle is worth fighting.

And whether one believes in religion or not … it can make or break change in society.

By: rjb

rjb — Mon, 22 Sep 2008 05:30:17 +0000

Yes Bud – but the relationship of dissident dioceses in the US (like Fort Worth, San Joaquin, and Pittsburgh) is not entirely dissimilar to the relationship of ECUSA to the wider Anglican Communion. Although I am sympathetic to the Episcopalian Church’s position, it seems to me that this really comes down to a question of ecclesiology – are we a corporate body and a Catholic Church, or are we just a federation of congregationalist parishes? If we are (as I believe) a fully Catholic Church, then all dioceses of ECUSA should submit to the gentle authority of that Church, and ECUSA in turn (like every other daughter-Church of Canterbury) should patiently respect the requirements of the broader Communion.

By: Jim

Jim — Sun, 21 Sep 2008 15:40:18 +0000

Eric, It’s not really that simple, and yet it is. The name on the property may be the local parish, but in order for the parish to have begun in the first place, it had to get approval and permission to organize from the bishop, and, by extension, the diocese. This would have been the case regardless of whether the parish was organized in 1776 or 2006. Therefore, the ultimate title would have been held by the diocese. In the cases that I am familiar with, and that includes one here in eastern North Carolina, the courts have honored the diocesan claim to the title.
The challenge has come from individuals within the local parish who have generally tried to claim, unsuccessfully, that they have paid the bills so the land, building(s), and bank accounts should belong to them. That is more or less a Baptist point of view and is totally foreign to the Episcopal way of thinking.
What has complicated these title discussions, at least here in NC, is that in many of the larger parishes the lay leadership is very closely tied to the local GOP so the argument becomes a “states’ rights” argument in the form of the ideologically pure local parish challenging the dictatorial, heretical bishop.
What has not happened in the past, as far as I’m aware, is when a bishop has tried to take an entire diocese to secede from the national church. So far a case like this has not gotten far enough in the court system for there to be any precedents.

By: Jason21TX

Jason21TX — Sat, 20 Sep 2008 05:24:40 +0000

The Episcopal church minus a few hotbeds of ignorance, is certain to join the United Churches of Christ, the MCC, The Unitarian Universalists, the reform and some conservative Jewish temples in supporting gay equality. This will leave only the Catholic church, and some of the far right christian churches still in the dark ages.

Liberation is coming. I know it is slow, it really is a generational problem, and most of todays kids, except those poisoned by right wing christians, and the redneck sects, already have gay friends, and think nothing bad of them.

Breaking the closet will help, over time break the back of those who use Jesus Name to denigrate and deny the humanity of our gay population. They do this because they dare not admit they were wrong, just as the catholic church dared not until it was exposed, admit they are loaded with perverts. It is a monstrosity in many ways, it’s history is a monstrosity, and sooner or later the people will wake up to their terrorism, false promises, and the hatred of some minority or other – the glue that binds the whole stinking mess together. And the pews will be occupied only by dust. And mankind will be free.

As Voltaire said in his writings back in the 1700′s, which helped foment the French revolution:

1. Mankind will be free only when the last king is strangled with the guts of the last priest.

2. People who believe in absurdities are people who will commit atrocities.

And for our right wing backwards churches, that is so true today.

By: Eric Fisher

Eric Fisher — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 23:19:47 +0000

I don’t get why ownership of Episcopal Church properties is unclear. Isn’t every property subject to a legal title so that everyone knows where they’re at from the first contribution?

By: Trace

Trace — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 22:50:21 +0000

WOW Chris S, you really have no respect for anyone but yourself. It’s really sad and pathetic that you have such disdain for people that actually have faith in a higher power.

I don’t begrudge you from following your belief in atheism. You too should respect those that have faith and choose to practice their beliefs.

By: bud clark

bud clark — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 20:52:32 +0000

David Wilson’s comments are most illuminating. Bishop Duncan and *some* in the diocese do not see themselves as a canonical part and therefore under obedience to the American Province of the Episcopal Church, but rather some kind of individual, congregationalist entity. They share that mistaken idea with most of the secessionists, who either want to be Presbyterians (on the low-church side) or Roman Catholics (on the high-church side), forgetting that the historical genius of Anglicanism is the “via media,” the “middle way.”

Bud Clark
San Diego, CA USA

By: Chris Sullivan

Chris Sullivan — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 16:58:23 +0000

The fact that we all sit here in 2008 worrying about how people deal with silly and utterly ridiculous mythologies from 2000 years ago is truly laughable.

By: gew

gew — Fri, 19 Sep 2008 15:58:55 +0000

“…and they’ll know we are Christians by our love by our love, yes they’ll know we are Christians by our love.”