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Loading ...Bid to convert Scottish civil partnerships to marriages
01.14.2009 3:12pm EST
(Edinburgh) A proposal to change Scotland’s civil partnership law to marriage will be considered by a parliamentary committee.
Scotland approved civil partnerships in 2005. Like a similar law in England and Wales, it gave same-sex couples all of the rights and responsibilities of marriage but without the name. Since the law went into effect, gay rights groups have been fighting to have the Civil Partnership law amended to be called Marriage.The Lesbian Gay Bisexual and Transgender Network of Scotland submitted a petition this week to Parliament calling for the Marriage Act to be amended to allow for same-sex marriage. It also would allow churches that support gay marriages to conduct weddings.
The petition was filed in parliament and referred to committee.
“Equality means all citizens should be treated the same, and that everyone must have the same rights under law,” said Network director Nick Henderson.
“Yet the status quo ensures a system of one law for straight couples and another for gay couples. Whatever the similarities between civil partnerships and marriage – separate but equal is inherently unequal,” Henderson said.
Under the Civil Partnership law, same-sex couples are able to register their relationships in town halls. Henderson said may gay and lesbian couples are religious and should have the right to be married in church if the denomination allows it.
“There is a huge diversity of opinion among faith groups on same sex marriage – churches, temples and synagogues should be able to decide if they want to marry couples or not,” he said.
“Question: do you guys have a Governor General or someone equivalent who is a standing representative of the reigning monarch of England as Canada does?”
No. We have a “First Minister” who “leads” the Scottish Parliament. He is regarded in Parliamentary terms, however, as subordinate to the UK Prime Minister.
“The difference with Canada and you guys is that we have had our own parliament that has acted on its own since Canada was incarnated as a country in 1867.”
There are many, many differences between Scotland and Canada, not least of which the fact that Canada is an independent nation and not part of the United Kingdom. The Commonwealth is, effectively, a trading alliance. The United Kingdom is a single sovereign nation and while Scotland has some devolved powers it is subordinate to the UK.
“Until Canada`s Constitution was patriated in 1982, the final signatory on any piece of legislation passed by our Parliament had been the regent in England.”
But like with legislation passed in Australia, the Queen did not have the power to refuse to sign legislation. The signature was a formality.
“A similar situation must exist in Scotland, Ireland-Ulster, and Wales. The Scotish Parliament should be able to make that decision within Scotland if Scotland is to be considred a self ruling politicla entity.”
No, it doesn’t.
Here’s what you’re failing to understand.
Canada has never been part of the United Kingdom. It was part of the British Empire. It is currently part of the British Commonwealth (not something to brag about). It has always been a separate entity, even when it was under British rule.
Scotland is different. There was a time when it was an independent nation. Then it became part of the UK. It has no sovereign rights and while there is a push for devolution it is still part of the United Kingdom and has only the powers granted to it by Westminster.
Canada has always led the way when it comes to civil rights, and I can only hope that the UK will follow. I don’t think now is the right time, however. There is the desire, but not the political will to make the changes required. Within a decade I would expect to see same-sex marriage rights in the UK, and shortly thereafter across the European Union. For now, however, we will just have to continue looking to Canada as an example.
Hey guys form Scotland, it may come as a surprise to you but Canada is much in the same place as the other countries of the British Isles; Canada is part of what is referred to as the British Commonwealth of Nations. Canada is part of what is also called a Constitutional Monarchy.
Question: do you guys have a Governor General or someone equivalent who is a standing representative of the reigning monarch of England as Canada does?
The difference with Canada and you guys is that we have had our own parliament that has acted on its own since Canada was incarnated as a country in 1867. Until Canada`s Constitution was patriated in 1982, the final signatory on any piece of legislation passed by our Parliament had been the regent in England. Sionce 1982, the Governor General who represents the regent of England is the final signatory. Canada and Canadians are on the final leg of becoming a democratic republic seperate completely from the British Dominion. When we figuratively send the GG home to England and replace that position and title with President then Canada will be a completely seperate country. Canada has always had its own currency and postage system, even before it was inaugurated as a country but the current regent England appears on much of it not all. Someof our own Canadian heroes appear.
But what I wanted to say about ss marriage is that in Canada, it was passed for the whole country in 2005 even though we are part of the British Dominion, there was not even the slightlest attempts by the British government to interfere in our homeland affairs. It has never happened anyway in all of Canada`s history.
A similar situation must exist in Scotland, Ireland-Ulster, and Wales. The Scotish Parliament should be able to make that decision within Scotland if Scotland is to be considred a self ruling politicla entity.
I suppose what would define a country status for any nation is whether or not they have their own passeport and citizenship. Canada only instituted its own Citizenship and Passeport Ministry in 1947. Canada has only had its own consulates in foreign countries since the passeport date as well.
Also Canada has its own armed forces whereas that would not be the case for the three countries in question. Also about consulates and such, not so much. in order for Scotland, Ireland and Wales to acquire full nationhood all of these additonal features have to be added, I should think. But is this progress or in fact devolution? Should any of your countries seek that kind of independence again? it is for the people of these nations to decide.
The strength of your own Parliaments should be strong enough to be able to enact any laws that lead to positive social change.
I really want to let people out there know how diffrent it is in Canada since same-sex marriage was made legal for the entire country. There is still homophobia and violent anti-gay attacks but on the whole there is real sense that same-sex marriage is here to stay. Same-sex couples with their own adopted infants have been seen but not common of course. I can only hope that not only Scotland, Ireland and Wales are able to enact full same-sex marriage legislation for each of their countries but all of England as well.
Canada enacted same-sex marriage before England’s Parliament approved civil union for same-sex couples.
I relly hope the same can happen in all three.
Cheers mates.
Andy B
“It like Scotland has its own stamps, its own money…”
Before you give the wrong idea here, it should be pointed out that these stamps and money are valid across the entire UK. I can take a banknote printed here in Scotland and spend it in London, just as I can use English currency here in Scotland. The money is all worth the same. The only difference is that all English currency is produced by the Bank of England, while three different banks produce currency for Scotland. Further, while there are stamps produced in Scotland, the vast majority of postage uses the standard first and second class stamps produced and sold everywhere in the UK.
“The 2 official languages of the UK are English and the Celtic language Welsh.”
Actually, the three official languages in the UK are English, Welsh and Scots Gaelic, though the latter is often missed on most lists of official languages as it is spoken by fewer than 60,000 people. Still there are two television channels in Scotland that broadcast only in Scotland’s native tongue.
“Each individual part of the UK got civil partnerships at a different time, First the North of Ireland as an Irish person might say and Northern Ireland as a British person might say, second Scotland, third Wales and fourth England.”
This is quite simply untrue. At the time that the Civil Partnership Act was implemented in the UK, Northern Ireland and Wales did not have power to implement or reject legislation. As such, when the Act was passed in Westminster it became law in England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
Prior to the passage of the Act the Scottish Parliament passed a Legislative Consent Motion allowing for Westminster to legislate for them. As such, the law was also passed in Scotland on the same day, as opposed to two or three weeks later as would have happened, as passing the legislation in Scotland was a mere formality (the Scottish Parliament did not have the power to reject the Civil Partnership Act).
However, due to a problem in the wording of the legislation, the first civil partnerships were registered in Northern Ireland first, then in Scotland, then in England and Wales.
In short, the legislation was passed in the same day across the UK, but civil partnership ceremonies began on different days in different regions, though with England and Wales starting two days after Northern Ireland.
Your phraseology makes it sound as though each area of the UK needed to vote and approve the legislation, and passage across the UK took months. The Act became law across the UK on the same day.
“While I don’t know all there is to know about what Scotland can or cannot do about its own marriage equality, these various part of the UK are their own native UK ethnic cultural identities from ancient times that may or may not have s certain amount of self-determination over certain areas of their own destinies while being all British citizens of the UK but while being separate Celtic peoples and not all English people even though English has become by far the most dominant if not the only native language of the UK.”
The abbreviated response:
Wales has no legislative autonomy.
England makes laws for either England and Wales; England, Wales and Northern Ireland; or the United Kingdom. It depends on the nature of the law as to whether Northern Ireland or Scotland can “opt out” of the legislation and go their own way. Wales does not have that option.
An example of where Scotland has chosen to “opt out” of UK legislation would be University tuition fees. While Universities in England, Wales and Northern Ireland charge tuition fees, Universities in Scotland do not.
However, Scotland is limited and cannot do certain things. It has limited financial autonomy and national taxes are set at Westminster. It does have control of local taxation, however. It has no military autonomy. While it has the option to subsidise some aspects of healthcare, the NHS is regulated by Westminster. While it has some limited control over its education system, the general curriculum is set by Westminster.
Scotland has the power to pass legislation calling civil partnerships “marriages”. It does not have the power to pass legislation permitting Churches to perform these ceremonies, or granting couples the same legal rights and responsibilities as married couples.
In short, without support from Westminster Scotland can change civil partnerships in name only.
You need to check today’s page … either the Comments are missing, or they’re overtyped onto something else, as in this article.
Cheeers,
Bud Burgoon-Clark
Drewski,
Whether Scotland (Alba) or Catalunya or any other autonomous or semi-autonomous European region has any standing in the EU is something I am not sure about.
Chan eil mi cinnteach mu dheidhinn sin.(I am not certain about that.)
Scotland (Alba in Gaelic)…many Scots regard themselves as an cultural identity or even as a nationality native to the Northern part of the British Isles and as themselves as Scots first and as British second but not as English people. A nation in the cultural sense not to be confused with England. England with its Germanic language and Scotland with its Celtic and Germanic languages is each a different “country” with it own flag and its own cultural identity.
Even the Shetland Islands (Hjaltland) and Orkney (Orknejar) have there own old Norse identity that shows up in their very different Norse derived place names with Norn a Norse language that died out centuries ago, a Norse identity that shows up in today’s local music that mixes Scottish and Norse music styles and monuments and ruins. Even the King of Norway came to that area to celebrate with those non-English and non-Gael locals their Norse heritage.
Scottish laws are on the Roman law system and England and Wales (Cymru in Welsh)are under English law. While Scotland is not responsible for its own defense as part of the UK and while its parliament (Parlamaid na hAlba) is strictly regional to Scotland only and limited in scope, Scotland is not a state in the ssnse of Iowa or Maryland being a state and Scotland is not a shire or a county. Scotland was a separate country until one of its kings went to London to unite the kingdoms of Scotland and England (Sasunn)into one kingdom ruled from London.
At Edinburgh Castle, (Caisteal Dhun Eideann) the Scottish crown jewels can be seen. They were hidden away to protect them and they are display and can be seen today.
This union of England and Scotland was something that some Scots to this very day despise and and until recently there was a Scottish independence movement to restore Scottish independence.
While few Scots want to be confused with being English, there are quite a lot who have no problem with being called British whether they are Gaelic speakers or not or Gaelic learners or not.
I know a Gaelic speaker from the Isle of Lewis (Eilean Leodhais) who considers herself both a Scot and a British citizen.
British yes, but English, definitely no.
Same with the Welsh who speak English (Saesneg) and Welsh (Cymraeg) in the principality of Wales.
And there is the duchy of Cornwall (Kernow) that is a part of England in a way that Scotland and Wales are not. All are united with England as the UK but all are originally Celtic lands and even Cornwall has its very Celtic places names and some Cornish (Kernowek) speakers speaking a language related to Welsh and from which the Celtic Breton (Brezhoneg) language of Brittany (Breizh) France is derived from and a native Cornish style of music with its own set of pipes.
Isle of Man (Ellan Vannin) was the last country in Europe to cease being at war with Germany. It like Scotland has its own stamps, its own money, own parliament where its laws are read in Manx Gaelic (Gaelck) and English, its own Celtic language, its own music and culture similar to that of Ireland and Scotland. Its own whiskey and oats and cuisine. It’s own national sense. But even though it is a part of the UK, it has its everything, its own “country” just like Scotland but not responsible for its own national defense.
The 2 official languages of the UK are English and the Celtic language Welsh.
Each individual part of the UK got civil partnerships at a different time, First the North of Ireland as an Irish person might say and Northern Ireland as a British person might say, second Scotland, third Wales and fourth England.
Each of these areas of the UK were either parts of other countries Northern Ireland is part of the 32 counties of island called Ireland but six of those counties are part of the UK. Northern Ireland has its own parliament called Stormont and that area has both Irish (Gaeilge) and English speakers. The other areas of the UK were independent kingdoms Scotland, Wales bacame a principality and the current Tywysog Cymry or Prince of Wales is Prince Charles. There was the deceased Princess of Wales, Diana. Both Prince Charles and Princess Diana respected the people of Wales to some degree by learning some of their Welsh language. Even the Queen of England (Banrigh Shasunn) tried to learn enough Gaelic to speak some to one of her palace guards a native Gaelic (Gaidhlig)speaker from Scotland.
While I don’t know all there is to know about what Scotland can or cannot do about its own marriage equality, these various part of the UK are their own native UK ethnic cultural identities from ancient times that may or may not have s certain amount of self-determination over certain areas of their own destinies while being all British citizens of the UK but while being separate Celtic peoples and not all English people even though English has become by far the most dominant if not the only native language of the UK.
A lot of people abroad regard Scotland as being either a subordinate “county” of the UK, or as being a State with a relationship to the UK akin to that of the relationship between a US State and the Federal Government. The fact is, neither image is correct.
Scotland has it’s own Parliament, but that Parliament has only limited power. It has no control over defense policy, limited control over the country’s finances and limited power to make and enforce laws. The first challenge it will face in changing the law to allow same-sex marriage is whether or not it has the authority to change that law.
At present the law regarding civil partnerships is the same in Scotland as it is in the UK. It is a law implemented by Westminster and adoption of the law in Scotland was a mere formality. As the law stands, I don’t believe the Scottish Parliament has the authority to change the Marriage Act here in Scotland.
I hope they are able to make the change. I live in Edinburgh and would very much like to see same-sex marriage legalised here (and across the UK), but I don’t see it happening.
For a change in law to work, the State must recognise that same-sex married couples have the same rights as heterosexual married couples. Scotland does not have full autonomy from the United Kingdom and thus wouldn’t be able to make the changes necessary to ensure that the UK would recognise the marriage. There would be tax and inheritance issues that the Scottish Parliament has no control over, and unless the UK allows the change in law, and agrees to recognise same-sex marriages in Scotland, the “marriage” would carry less legal weight than civil partnerships currently do.
In short, while I believe there is the will in the Scottish Parliament to make this change, they cannot do so without the cooperation of the United Kingdom and the Parliament in Westminster, and I doubt very much that they’d get it.
As for petitioning the EU, Scotland has no standing to do so. It is represented by the UK, and even though it has MEPs those MEPs cannot petition the EU on behalf of Scotland alone.
That said, any individual in Scotland can challenge the current legislation in the courts and appeal, eventually, to the European Union. They’d just need a few hundred thousand pounds to cover the legal costs of such an action. As the European Courts are the courts of final appeal, they have a lot of red tape to get through in order to get there, putting such an action outside of the reach of most people.
However, even if such an action were to be brought, it would not succeed. The EU has, as a matter of unofficial policy, decided to recognise the right of each and every member state to decide the issue of same-sex marriage for themselves. Not every country in the EU allows civil unions yet, let alone marriage, and I don’t see the EU putting any pressure on member states to change that.
Morgan, note that I specified Scotland’s current status as a component of the UK. As far as EU Human Rights Court is concerned, I’m guessing that Scotland is in a position analogous to Catalunya, or maybe a German state (say Hessen). Scotland, Catalunya and Hessen are all recognized as subordinate units of sovereign states, so do these sub-national units have any standing in the EU when it comes to arguing for expansion of human rights? Thanks to any who can clarify.
Scotland used to be an independent kingdom but even now has its own Parliament (Parlaimaid na hAlba)and its own bank notes, its own bank of Scotland (Banca na hAlba) It is a separate country within the UK with its own set of laws different (Roman law) than those of England and Wales (English law) Its own capital city Edinburgh(Dun Eideann)
With Edinburgh Castle (Caisteal Dhun Eideann) built upon an extinct volcano.
Scotland has its own national anthem
Flower of Scotland (Flur na hAlba)sung in English and in Gaelic, and also played on the bagpipes (piob mhor)
Scotland has its own set of music and songs in English, Lallans and Gaidhlig, its place and personal names are derived from all three languages and it has own cultures and even has rock as well as traditional music in both English and Gaelic.
So, even though Scotland is part of the UK, it remains a country of its own culturally, linguistically, politically
and legally as the above examples illustrate.
Alba gu brath! Scotland forever!
Since Scotland is part of the UK, would Scots who feel the current law (non-marriage marriage) discriminated against them…could they challenge that in the European Court of Human Rights?
This is fantastic! And to think, it was only in 2000 that Section 28 (the law prohibiting even the mention of homosexuality in schools) finally got repealed in Scotland. Having worked with the Green Party at the Scottish Parliament, I know that there are at least a few MSP’s devoted to full and complete marriage equality.
That said, its chances of success may not be great, given the utter and absolute backwardness of the SNP, Labour, and especially the Conservative parties. At the least, it will provide much-needed exposure and push us one step closer.
It’s too bad you currently can’t have your civil partnership ceremony in a church in Great Britain even if you and the church want to. I’m sure that’s not a huge concern for a lot of people wanting same-sex marriage/union, but it still discriminates against those who do.
I think this is great news. If I ever met the right woman I’d like to be able to marry her properly rather that have a cival partnership with all my Scottish relatives watching us tie the knot.