The ‘loftiest goals’ of this country have historically included things like an unelected President and Senate (the original structure of the US government).

What do you propose here? Eliminating citizens’ right to vote on referenda?

“Go ahead and say states can do certain things, people use religious hatred to fuel legislative agendas and that’s ok, and please, please, keep apologizing for the christian haters.”

Other people use religious zeal to fuel legislative agendae that are not negative to us. Should we push them away too?

“Suffice it to say my original rebuttal to your ridiculous statement stands: The fact we have a majority of christians in this country does not mean that their moral code is the law of the land.”

Um, you’re ‘rebutting’ a statement I never made. Your straw man argument is kind of useless rhetorically. Yes, their moral code is not the law of the land. That does not mean the law of the land is not influenced by things religious people believe in. (The fact that sodomy laws were considered Constitutional for 215 years of American history should be evidence of that.)

“Our movement of anti-religion (not merely atheist, mind you) is gaining lots of momentum…and lots of followers.”

Not in the mainstream. To be completley frank, there are more people that believe Barack Obama is a middle-aged Australian guy than will endorse your belief that religion should not exist.

“For me the saddest part of this whole thing is gays will join with the enemy, and self avowed non believers like yourself would defend that.”

I defend the rights of all people because no one deserves any rights if they will not defend the rights of others. Our Constitution includes protection to the free exercise of religion; if you choose to argue that.

There is no oppressed minority group in any democratic country that has ever received equal rights by rejecting the establishment without blood. None. Ever. Zero. And even if blood is given rights are not guaranteed. If gay people want equal rights without blood, the only way is to shift public opinion and work within the system. Christians continue to represent a supermajority of the American population and we must work with moderate and liberal Christians to accomplish our legislative objectives.

This is the real world. Hate of religion does not win us any new supporters.

“and the RCC has no issue with Science? What planet are you on? How many early scientists did they kill?”

What the RCC did 500 years ago is not consistent with what they’ve been doing for the last 200 or so. The RCC was one of the first social institutions to accept the fact of evolution by natural selection.

Doesn’t matter…the point is that if we allow the things that you say are happening to continue, we will be giving up some of the loftiest goals of this country.

Go ahead and say states can do certain things, people use religious hatred to fuel legislative agendas and that’s ok, and please, please, keep apologizing for the christian haters.

You may see it as a rant, that is fine, feel free to miss what religion does to society. Long before I came out I realized what religion is doing. In my valedictory speach I admonished the audience for being sucked in by religion which is destroying our ability to evolve and survive in a changing world, a world we are changing. This is not just about gay, it is about homo sapien’s fatal flaw: the need to be significant, to the point we will accept ridiculous fairy tales about being the center of the universe, the Earth having been made just for us, divine providence etc., etc.

Of course I don’t agree with your assessment of my understanding of the situation. Suffice it to say my original rebuttal to your ridiculous statement stands: The fact we have a majority of christians in this country does not mean that their moral code is the law of the land. That is due to our constitution and YOU are playing into the vote on our rights argument that is silly.

And yes I am convincing people…lots of them. Our movement of anti-religion (not merely atheist, mind you) is gaining lots of momentum…and lots of followers.

For me the saddest part of this whole thing is gays will join with the enemy, and self avowed non believers like yourself would defend that.

Sad, all due to fear of the unkown. As a race we really do have limitations, unfortunately we have stopped the evolutionary process. In fact we’re evolving backwards as stupid people breed more than educated people.

and the RCC has no issue with Science? What planet are you on? How many early scientists did they kill? Oh, they’ve changed? Aids/condoms anyone?

Wake up Kari.

There have been rulings prior to Lawrence v. Texas regarding this very same issue where the court ruled sodomy laws were constitutional. Bowers v. Hardwick is the only one that made it to the supreme court as far as I know, but in that case the court ruled that sodomy laws were legal.

Lawrence v. Texas was a ruling in our favor and that’s a good thing. It could however, like any judicial precedent, be overturned someday. It’s unlikely given social trends in the country, but it at least theoretically is possible.

“If you were correct than we’d have a huge problem with the establishment clause.”

The Establishment Clause is not really a good legal argument against a sodomy law. While it makes sense and isn’t wrong per se, if I was a judge (which I’m not; I’m not even a lawyer), I wouldn’t buy it. A lot of law and legal ideas ultimately descend from religions and trying to argue that the government can’t make something illegal because there are religious motivations is silly. You could make the same argument for the legalization of murder, prostitution, or pretty much anything else.

The right to privacy is a better idea to base the argument on because there’s case law to support it.

“I single you out because this is a huge problem in our community. Your opinion as expressed extends to the bigots’ argument that the people should vote on our rights.”

Whether or not they SHOULD be able to vote on our rights is irrelevant. Our country is one where they, in some states, CAN vote on this issue, and as citizens of this country we must respect that. A fundamental problem with democracy is that the rights of individuals are protected only at the whim of the majority.

There was no intent among the Constitution’s framers to make the United States a democracy, but the leaders of several states have made their states more democratic, and as states they have an absolute legal right to do so.

“Just because the country is mostly stupid christians doesn’t mean they get to decide who has rights.”

In some states, they do get to make such a decision because their state constitutions enable them to do so through a process that is more democratic than the federal government.

“The brainwashed christian idiot hater-bigots DO NOT get to say what is legal and what isn’t.”

They do if they vote. They are citizens of this country too.

Overall observations of your rant:
i. Poor understanding of case law on homosexuality.
ii. Poor understanding of American legal processes.
iii. Poor understanding of the state/federal distinctions created by federalism.

I suppose in a purely intellectual sense I agree that democracy’s frequent inabilty to protect individual rights is a problem. But there is really no basis to argue that states cannot enable voters to vote on a variety of issues within their states if their constitutions allow it, so long as any new legal situation created by such a vote does not violate the US Constitution.

During the post-Prop 8 marriage case (Strauss v. Horton) in California, Chief Justice George expressed during the proceedings that he felt that it was simply too easy to change the California State Constitution. Really, there are hundreds of amendments to that document while some other states have relatively few. The California State Constitution, as written, provides for voters to have this ability, for good or for bad. But that does not mean it is legally invalid.

“how could anyone except a republican closet case be gay and be a christian.”

Uh, easily? There are a lot of LGBT Christian and LGBT people in other religious groups. Sure, not all groups accept gays. But said gays tend to avoid those groups. It is a fact that there are many religious organizations that are fighting for our rights, and all have internal struggles between conservatives and liberals within their own organizations on how to respond to issues of gay clergy and gay marriage or commitment ceremonies.

“Gay christians: STOP IT YOU ARE HURTING OUR CAUSE.”

I’m not a Christian, but no, you are hurting our cause. A lot.

“Suggestion: spend the next four sundays reading science, geology, the history of the planet and universe.”

There’s no problem with xtianity here. Sure, there are xtian groups that are totally ignorant and in denial about the realities of our world. But some (e.g. the Catholics) have absolutely no conflict with science.

Your bigotry about Christians isn’t going to win us any rights. I’m sorry. It isn’t. Sit in your little corner of the world ranting about how Christians are evil and crazy if you want, but Christians will only respond defensively that you’re evil and crazy. That is how the world works. You’re not convincing anyone.

Wake up dude. Google the Documentary “Constantine’s Sword” or rent it from netflix.

Then for the rest of you Sunday Christians:

Drop your bibles and step away from the religion. Your people and your planet are begging you to move forward!

http://www.365gay.com/news/are-gay-churchgoers-more-devout-more-active/

Though there are quite a few on here that are spewing hate, remember that they are not the majority within the gay community.

How can we ever win if the very people they demonize don’t use their brains to see they are being manipulated?

how could anyone except a republican closet case be gay and be a christian.

if we don’t look in the mirror and see who is hating us, we may not win, and Kari would be right.

Gay christians: STOP IT YOU ARE HURTING OUR CAUSE. Suggestion: spend the next four sundays reading science, geology, the history of the planet and universe. Really apply reason, use your brain. Your god won’t miss you for four Sundays.

Come back and tell me you still believe in fairy tale land floating on the clouds. Then I’ll know it isn’t brainwashing, but insanity and I’ll back off and just pity you.

Really analyze..use reason. Only one conclusion! (ever wonder why all the great minds…ALL of them…were not sucked into the lies????)

Just look at the Supreme Court..the Pope’s court, the catholic court. The court that decided lawrence v. texas. Why? our constitution.

Why is homosexuality not illegal? Because against the cries of damnation, the idiots pushing for witch hunts (bitch hunts? couldn’t resist…) we rasied court cases that were decided based on our constitution, not religious opinion.

If you were correct than we’d have a huge problem with the establishment clause.

I single you out because this is a huge problem in our community. Your opinion as expressed extends to the bigots’ argument that the people should vote on our rights. You feed right into them. Just because the country is mostly stupid christians doesn’t mean they get to decide who has rights. The constitution does that.

The fact there are so many loud ones just makes the fight harder, but victory as we have proven is inevitable.

The brainwashed christian idiot hater-bigots DO NOT get to say what is legal and what isn’t. I can’t believe someone would post such nonsense…they teach civics in high school, so it doesn’t take a scholar to understand.

Wayne: go ahead and keep fooling yourself but if you claim to be a christian and if you give money to a christian organization, you fuel the hate we fight every day. Shame on you and all gay christians. Sure, you belong to an “opena and affirming” church..open to your wallet and affirming that they aren’t bigots, really? Who joins a cult that has to say “no, not us, we don’t harbor that kind of hate”..but they have all the other kinds of hate this cult is known for, they just happen to love your gay money. SHAME I say. Wake up smell the rationality, its a total LIE…deep meaings? Do as I say (not as i do) or you Burn baby Burn. Pretty shallow I say, sad so many like you are sucked in.

Morgan, quit lying to yourself, if you were truly interested in learning ANYTHING you’d look into the cult you defend so often on here and run for your life away from it. Your cozy little story about comfortable Sundays may be a way for you to reconcile with yourself the need to be welcomed and told you are special but get over it..they just want your money. Think about what you are supposed to believe! Talking snakes…

Secrity: right on. I can’t fathom why people even want to believe this crap, and then why they do. And for gays to be christians, wow, the denial…wow.

Liberal churches. people should think about it. You join a hateful cult that has to qualify “oh no, not us, we reject christian hatred”..that’s what it is all about…read the book, I have, it is scary!