Comments on: Archbishop’s letters contradict current gay position

By: Godfery

Godfery — Sat, 09 Aug 2008 06:09:24 +0000

Mikefromoakville: The church has had a couple of thousand years to get its act together and still the Anglicans are fretting about women clergy and (horror!) women bishops. Leaving aside the self-evident monstrosities of the foul paedophiliac nest that is the Catholic church, isn’t it time Xtians – indeed, all “believers” – grew up and got over their “faith” in a non-existent sky-god whose “revelations” emerge from within the psycho-emotional arena wherein dwells human need and fear, not from a divinity. I was raised an Anglican in suburban England, saw my mother fall prey to the greedy deceits of pentecostal evangelicalism, and watched (literally, watched) her die of the diabetes she refused to have treated because “Jesus healed me” at the revival meeting she’d been to a couple of weeks before – a revival ministry whose preacher had no recollection of who she was when I called to try and understand why a “healing” “ministry” would con people to death. My mother was 44. I was 16. I leave you to draw your conclusions about the madness of religion. So, Mikefromoakville, the hell with your idea that the church will “come around”. It won’t. Nor will Radical Islam. Religion is an institutionalized lie, and the suffering it causes is individual (hello) and societal (9/11, the Crusades, Gaza, the Inquisition). And as for this gay man, I can tell you that the agony I endured, wanting Jesus to make me “not-gay” (before I found my best friend at school was gay and I had a moral supporter), the aagony I endured, should not be inflicted on ANYONE. let alone a child. But the churches do it every second of every day. Isn’t it interesting, that when I realized (age 16) that my mother had been killed by a vile lie posing as the “word of god”, I also began the long process of accepting myself. It is such a relief, finally, after decades, to realize: There Is No God. Or Gods. Get over it, and free the world from this nightmare called “religion”.

By: rjb

rjb — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 11:04:22 +0000

I have to agree with Mike. The Archbishop, like most moderate English bishops, is playing for time. He is convinced that the ‘centre ground’ will shift towards the liberals over the coming years, but that it is important not to force the issue now in a way that could damage the Church irreparably. Moreover, if the issue were to be forced now – as some here appear to wish – it would be liberals and gay and lesbian Anglicans who would be the losers. The majority of the Communion, and the vast majority of its bishops, come from countries culturally hostile to homosexuality. If there were a split, the American and Canadian churches (and parts of the churches in Australia, New Zealand and Britain) and LGBT Christians in Africa and Asia would be left out in the cold. The situation in the Anglican world is changing, but it will require time. Patience and tolerance are needed in the interim.

Williams is not, as some here claim, a hypocrite. He is a deeply sincere and honest man, whose personal views are very well-known. But he feels the need to sacrifice his own convictions to his position, in which his main responsibility is to ensure the continued unity of the Church. I have it from close friends of the Archbishop that he is personally very unhappy with the demands his position places on him, and it is difficult not to feel sorry for him. But I think he is doing the right thing, even if it looks, from the outside, as though he has abandoned his liberal principles.

By: mikefromoakville

mikefromoakville — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 07:49:55 +0000

SteveMD2, I think comparing the Anglican Church to the Catholic Church is an apples to oranges thing. You are right that the Catholic Church has no intention of changing but the Anglican Church IS changing, right before our eyes. It just can’t happen as quickly as we’d like. Rowan Williams’ mandate is to keep the Anglican communion together, to find the common ground for harmony through understanding and accepting the differences within the diverse cultures that make up the Anglican communion… To clarify, I am not against the Church moving forward. I am a member at a local Anglican Church. I came out late in life and some of the most genuine support I have received has been from the members and clergy of my Church. I would like nothing more than to see my Church officially accept me and my choice of a life partner the same as they do for heterosexual partners. I believe it will happen and I believe it will happen within a relatively short period of time.

Sincerely, Mikefromoakville

By: SteveMD2

SteveMD2 — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 07:06:06 +0000

MikefromOakville made an interesting comment about Rowan Williams “giving the church time to adjust”. I’d like to disagree. The history of churches – take the Catholic church as an example, is that they never want to change, for to admit they were wrong calls the whole meaning of (blind, non thinking) faith into question. While they ponder these questions for a millenia, good people suffer.

Sorry, Mike, I see your point, but I think you missed the key issue, or you’re really against the church moving forward. And let’s not fear breakup of the Anglican communion. The Anglican church was a breakaway from the Catholic Church – was it about 500 years ago. And maybe it needs to split off it’s group of people living in the dark ages and practice the golden rule, which in this writer’s opinion is all that religion has to be.

By: Bob in Annapolis MD

Bob in Annapolis MD — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 06:54:50 +0000

It would be nice if he stood up for what is right, and told those living in the past to go away, the world will be better for it. He doesn’t deserve his position, maybe the church could keep him as a choir boy.

By: Mikefromoakville

Mikefromoakville — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 06:41:33 +0000

Rowan Williams did the right thing for the situation as it is today. Had he made a definitive statement either way it most certainly would have caused a split within the worldwide Anglican community. By continuing the status quo he is giving the conservative members of the community time that is needed to adjust to the concept of change. I understand the gay community’s desire to have their rights immediately granted (as they should be) but the reality of it is, that will take time. You can’t expect that drastic of a change to happen overnight. Relatively speaking the Anglican Church is changing rapidly. Look at where the Church was five years ago, or ten years ago. The Anglican Church has come a long way in a short period of time. Give it more time and it’ll get there.

By: Bill Perdue

Bill Perdue — Fri, 08 Aug 2008 01:02:03 +0000

Rowan Williams is a hypocrite, but that’s common with people infected with the disease of superstition.

Superstition is what religion is called when it’s all gussied up and trying to look respectable. After disease, it’s humankind’s greatest tragedy.

Religion is what keeps the poor from murdering the rich.
Napoleon Bonaparte

The howling madness that produced witch burnings, the Inquisition, anti-Semitism, the Crusades and a century of genocides against Armenians, European Jews, Russians, muslims in Bosnia-Herzegovina, and non-muslims in Drafur also produced the murders of unknown tens of thousands of GLBT folk by christist and islamic thugs. That’s all the proof we’ll ever need to be the implacable enemies of superstition.

When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said “Let us pray.” We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.
Desmond Tutu

Religious/superstitious people display symptoms of severe mental illness (hallucinations, conversing with invisible creatures), sociopathology (their penchant for killing people not similarly afflicted) and criminality (child rape and fraud). There is no reason why they should be permitted to have any voice in the affairs of sane people.

Theology is never any help; it is searching in a dark cellar at midnight for a black cat that isn’t there. Theologians can persuade themselves of anything.
Robert A. Heinlein

By: AJ

AJ — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 17:20:05 +0000

Rowan Williams stated: ‘When I teach as a bishop I teach what the church teaches. In controverted areas it is my responsibility to teach what the church has said and why.’

Nonsense. Bishops formulate church law and policies on numerous issues. They are called to be boldly prophetic rather than merely juridical.

Williams chooses instead to be a protectionist executive in an ecclesiastical corporation. He is no Desmond Tutu. He is a hypocrite. The Church of England deserves to be relegated to the dustbin of religious history.

By: Michael V.

Michael V. — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 16:46:26 +0000

If Rowan Willams had any true personal convictions, he would quit the Church in order to preserve his personal integrity. Instead, he has chosen to be a prostitute of Church doctrine in order to have position and power. The soles of his shoes are muddied with the souls he has trampled upon.

By: Tristan Robin

Tristan Robin — Thu, 07 Aug 2008 15:29:27 +0000

Why am I just not surprised at another example of hypocrisy from mainstream organized religion?