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	<title>Comments on: Anti-gay pastors in civil disobedience protest</title>
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		<title>By: Jason21TX</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22950</link>
		<dc:creator>Jason21TX</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Oct 2008 07:57:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22950</guid>
		<description>All you have to do is substitute the words &quot;lies and hatred and ancient superstitions&quot; where ever they talk about truths, and you shall have the real truth.

And the real truth will set us all free.

And we can fix the federal deficit in a hurry.

To the person who said in Canada that the churches are involved in politics, fortunately for you,  you don&#039;t have an American Taliban Christian Republican party.  Which is exactly what is wrong with America.  And also, the base of that party of ours is composed of those people who still long for slavery and the confederacy, (remember slavery was an economic crime),  combined with many of the super-wealthy of America, who worship at the golden calf, the idol of their God named Greed.

It reminds me of the middle oops dark ages, where mankind went nowhere for a thousand years, while corrupt popes and corrupt kings and emperors ravaged the Muslim nations.  No wonder they still find it so easy to hate us.

Please count your blessings in your wonderful country of Canada.  Lots of us may want to emigrate there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>All you have to do is substitute the words &#8220;lies and hatred and ancient superstitions&#8221; where ever they talk about truths, and you shall have the real truth.</p>
<p>And the real truth will set us all free.</p>
<p>And we can fix the federal deficit in a hurry.</p>
<p>To the person who said in Canada that the churches are involved in politics, fortunately for you,  you don&#8217;t have an American Taliban Christian Republican party.  Which is exactly what is wrong with America.  And also, the base of that party of ours is composed of those people who still long for slavery and the confederacy, (remember slavery was an economic crime),  combined with many of the super-wealthy of America, who worship at the golden calf, the idol of their God named Greed.</p>
<p>It reminds me of the middle oops dark ages, where mankind went nowhere for a thousand years, while corrupt popes and corrupt kings and emperors ravaged the Muslim nations.  No wonder they still find it so easy to hate us.</p>
<p>Please count your blessings in your wonderful country of Canada.  Lots of us may want to emigrate there.</p>
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		<title>By: Lambie In Buffalo</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22898</link>
		<dc:creator>Lambie In Buffalo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 20:22:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22898</guid>
		<description>If you are not WORKING to gain your rights then you are a part of the problem...

This sickens me. I hope you will be willing to read all the way through this… I know it is a long post but I don’t want to be quiet anymore. 

I married at 17, (I was a good Latter-day Saint girl), to a return missionary in the Los Angeles Temple in 1974, and promptly had 3 incredible babies. I can speak to this issue. 

The Mormon church pays taxes… always has. It’s belief is that doing so  keeps the government from having any ability to control the churches functions, businesses (yes it owns a lot of them), and public and private practices.

One of the first principles of Mormon Gospel is FREE AGENCY... the right of an individual to CHOOSE to follow or not follow. They taught this it is why Christ sacrificed himself, to assure that the &quot;plan&quot; (choosing for ones self their own salvation rather than having it forced upon them) would become the example of how His work would further itself... by choice. One of the second principles was the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.

I have long since left the church, as have my children, because of the incredible hypocrisy that exists within its hierarchy. 

Classic forest for the trees... While immersed in the church I actively attended and participated. I was proud that the MY church encouraged us to read and study: “seek knowledge and understanding as the glory of God is intelligence”. But the problem is that you read everything with an attitude that distorts the reality.  (“Remember that as you read these things it is Satan who has written them to steer you away from right thinking”) 

I didn’t see the nasty patriarchal system that not only subjugated women but very skillfully taught them that to even question this was to doubt the existence of  the Godhood. 

I struggled to rationalize the bigotry, even with the “sins of the mark of Cain“ nonsense. “Man shall be punished for his own transgressions and not for the sins of Adam”… But yes on the sins of Cain? Hmmm

I held on to the several principles (and still do) that I felt truly reflected Christ’s intent; Free Agency. That I (and everyone else) is/am truly a child of God, a perfect creation, it is what we individually do with that that He watches. That we must obey the laws of the land. That Christ was compassionate and his entire life was an example… and that is where I began to fall apart….

When Blacks were given the “right to hold the priesthood” it was done in response to the Civil Rights Mandates and relatively new (1968)  anti miscegenation Laws, NOT because of God suddenly calling up Spencer Kimball in 1978 (just 30 years ago!) and telling him that Black men were “now ready” to hold the priesthood. Bigotry and segregationism STILL actively exist and are quietly manipulated in all-white upper-middleclass closed door meetings. 

The Mormon church is no better that the catholic church in its dealings with pedophiles or child abusers and wife beaters (I speak from personal experience- I would add here that; “no, Bishop, he won‘t stop if I just pray harder and work on being a better wife and mother in Zion, and yes, Father in Heaven knows my plight and His heart aches for me, but you just covering it up doesn‘t make me heal any faster, but instead gives him permission to do it again.“) 

While they teach faith, hope and charity, they deem that there are “those among us” who do not deserve consideration or compassion and are shunned. (The mentally ill are a good example, as are unwed mothers but most specifically women who stand up against a priesthood holder- the absolute worst thing you can do.)

I became further disillusioned when (after living in self loathing denial about my orientation- no, you can’t pray this away either) I decided to choose to exercise my agency and leave my marriage and live as an openly gay woman, mother, grandmother, sister, friend, and daughter. Suddenly, I realized how dark it had been in the forest. I could write volumes on this experience. All these years later I am even more disillusioned by the manipulation of the scriptures and the willingness of the church to abandon free agency for the secondary plan. 

I got a call from our eldest daughter, (My wife and I now have 5 children and, soon to be, 14 grandchildren). She told me (quite angrily) that she had gotten a call from some idiot asking her to support Arizona Prop 102. (I instantly felt sorry for the poor guy… I bet his A** is still bleeding! - you’d have to know my daughter) She had figured out that the call came from an individual using a church roster to make these calls because he called her by a name that is only listed on the church records. Using the roster of the membership for political purposes has something that has been grounds for excommunication in the past but is apparently now a protected, even encouraged practice. 

If I were still actively paying TEN PERCENT of my income annually, I would be demanding a refund! 

I am sickened by the new policy of pulpit politics… it was the last bastion of respect I had for Mormons. 

Back in the day, we were told “study the issues, pray on them and cast your vote as you lay out your prayers - secretly, privately, alone with God”.

Somewhere in all of this the bully pulpit builders forgot this;
“As I have loved you, love one another, this new commandment, love one another. By THIS shall men know ye are MY disciples, in that ye have love, one to another”-Christ
I have reread this a thousand times just to make sure that I didn’t miss the exceptions clause… I have never found anyplace where He said not to love someone. He did get angry about the money changers (people making money in the temples/churches) and made it clear that he disliked hypocrisy, (Woe unto the Sadducees and pharoses who stand on the street corners and call out loudly ‘Lord, Lord!’ with their mouths while their hearts are far from Me.”

Am I just disgruntled? No, I am recovering… and I am not alone… 

Probably the saddest part of this is how many LGBT people have found themselves hating God via the churches that claim to OWN him.

I am still his child. He owns me. I choose it that way. I do not belong to a church. But there are some wonderful ones out there… ones that get it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you are not WORKING to gain your rights then you are a part of the problem&#8230;</p>
<p>This sickens me. I hope you will be willing to read all the way through this… I know it is a long post but I don’t want to be quiet anymore. </p>
<p>I married at 17, (I was a good Latter-day Saint girl), to a return missionary in the Los Angeles Temple in 1974, and promptly had 3 incredible babies. I can speak to this issue. </p>
<p>The Mormon church pays taxes… always has. It’s belief is that doing so  keeps the government from having any ability to control the churches functions, businesses (yes it owns a lot of them), and public and private practices.</p>
<p>One of the first principles of Mormon Gospel is FREE AGENCY&#8230; the right of an individual to CHOOSE to follow or not follow. They taught this it is why Christ sacrificed himself, to assure that the &#8220;plan&#8221; (choosing for ones self their own salvation rather than having it forced upon them) would become the example of how His work would further itself&#8230; by choice. One of the second principles was the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE.</p>
<p>I have long since left the church, as have my children, because of the incredible hypocrisy that exists within its hierarchy. </p>
<p>Classic forest for the trees&#8230; While immersed in the church I actively attended and participated. I was proud that the MY church encouraged us to read and study: “seek knowledge and understanding as the glory of God is intelligence”. But the problem is that you read everything with an attitude that distorts the reality.  (“Remember that as you read these things it is Satan who has written them to steer you away from right thinking”) </p>
<p>I didn’t see the nasty patriarchal system that not only subjugated women but very skillfully taught them that to even question this was to doubt the existence of  the Godhood. </p>
<p>I struggled to rationalize the bigotry, even with the “sins of the mark of Cain“ nonsense. “Man shall be punished for his own transgressions and not for the sins of Adam”… But yes on the sins of Cain? Hmmm</p>
<p>I held on to the several principles (and still do) that I felt truly reflected Christ’s intent; Free Agency. That I (and everyone else) is/am truly a child of God, a perfect creation, it is what we individually do with that that He watches. That we must obey the laws of the land. That Christ was compassionate and his entire life was an example… and that is where I began to fall apart….</p>
<p>When Blacks were given the “right to hold the priesthood” it was done in response to the Civil Rights Mandates and relatively new (1968)  anti miscegenation Laws, NOT because of God suddenly calling up Spencer Kimball in 1978 (just 30 years ago!) and telling him that Black men were “now ready” to hold the priesthood. Bigotry and segregationism STILL actively exist and are quietly manipulated in all-white upper-middleclass closed door meetings. </p>
<p>The Mormon church is no better that the catholic church in its dealings with pedophiles or child abusers and wife beaters (I speak from personal experience- I would add here that; “no, Bishop, he won‘t stop if I just pray harder and work on being a better wife and mother in Zion, and yes, Father in Heaven knows my plight and His heart aches for me, but you just covering it up doesn‘t make me heal any faster, but instead gives him permission to do it again.“) </p>
<p>While they teach faith, hope and charity, they deem that there are “those among us” who do not deserve consideration or compassion and are shunned. (The mentally ill are a good example, as are unwed mothers but most specifically women who stand up against a priesthood holder- the absolute worst thing you can do.)</p>
<p>I became further disillusioned when (after living in self loathing denial about my orientation- no, you can’t pray this away either) I decided to choose to exercise my agency and leave my marriage and live as an openly gay woman, mother, grandmother, sister, friend, and daughter. Suddenly, I realized how dark it had been in the forest. I could write volumes on this experience. All these years later I am even more disillusioned by the manipulation of the scriptures and the willingness of the church to abandon free agency for the secondary plan. </p>
<p>I got a call from our eldest daughter, (My wife and I now have 5 children and, soon to be, 14 grandchildren). She told me (quite angrily) that she had gotten a call from some idiot asking her to support Arizona Prop 102. (I instantly felt sorry for the poor guy… I bet his A** is still bleeding! &#8211; you’d have to know my daughter) She had figured out that the call came from an individual using a church roster to make these calls because he called her by a name that is only listed on the church records. Using the roster of the membership for political purposes has something that has been grounds for excommunication in the past but is apparently now a protected, even encouraged practice. </p>
<p>If I were still actively paying TEN PERCENT of my income annually, I would be demanding a refund! </p>
<p>I am sickened by the new policy of pulpit politics… it was the last bastion of respect I had for Mormons. </p>
<p>Back in the day, we were told “study the issues, pray on them and cast your vote as you lay out your prayers &#8211; secretly, privately, alone with God”.</p>
<p>Somewhere in all of this the bully pulpit builders forgot this;<br />
“As I have loved you, love one another, this new commandment, love one another. By THIS shall men know ye are MY disciples, in that ye have love, one to another”-Christ<br />
I have reread this a thousand times just to make sure that I didn’t miss the exceptions clause… I have never found anyplace where He said not to love someone. He did get angry about the money changers (people making money in the temples/churches) and made it clear that he disliked hypocrisy, (Woe unto the Sadducees and pharoses who stand on the street corners and call out loudly ‘Lord, Lord!’ with their mouths while their hearts are far from Me.”</p>
<p>Am I just disgruntled? No, I am recovering… and I am not alone… </p>
<p>Probably the saddest part of this is how many LGBT people have found themselves hating God via the churches that claim to OWN him.</p>
<p>I am still his child. He owns me. I choose it that way. I do not belong to a church. But there are some wonderful ones out there… ones that get it.</p>
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		<title>By: JD</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22860</link>
		<dc:creator>JD</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:39:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22860</guid>
		<description>Michael asked, &quot;When was the last time a “Right Wing” religious group flew airplanes into buildings? &quot;

September 11, 2001</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Michael asked, &#8220;When was the last time a “Right Wing” religious group flew airplanes into buildings? &#8221;</p>
<p>September 11, 2001</p>
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		<title>By: Michael</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22859</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 10:37:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22859</guid>
		<description>When was the last time a &quot;Right Wing&quot; religious group flew airplanes into buildings?     Helloooooo!!!!!Gay Churches are NOTHING but cruising joints &amp; &quot;propaganda&quot; machines for the &#039;Gay&#039; Agenda.  As a Gay Man, they offend me.  Obama Bin Biden will end all of our gayness problems and befriend radical Muslims, etc...They (Muslims) will ban all religions (Just look @ the UK, by 2025 will be an Islamic Nation!) Remember, there are NO homosexuals in Iran!  You need to read Obama&#039;s Book: From The Audacity Of Hope, I WILL STAND WITH THE MUSLIMS SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR SHIFT IN AN UGLY DIRECTION..     

McCain-Palin &#039;08!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When was the last time a &#8220;Right Wing&#8221; religious group flew airplanes into buildings?     Helloooooo!!!!!Gay Churches are NOTHING but cruising joints &amp; &#8220;propaganda&#8221; machines for the &#8216;Gay&#8217; Agenda.  As a Gay Man, they offend me.  Obama Bin Biden will end all of our gayness problems and befriend radical Muslims, etc&#8230;They (Muslims) will ban all religions (Just look @ the UK, by 2025 will be an Islamic Nation!) Remember, there are NO homosexuals in Iran!  You need to read Obama&#8217;s Book: From The Audacity Of Hope, I WILL STAND WITH THE MUSLIMS SHOULD THE POLITICAL WINDS OF WAR SHIFT IN AN UGLY DIRECTION..     </p>
<p>McCain-Palin &#8216;08!</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22856</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:19:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22856</guid>
		<description>&quot;They Sow the Wind, and Reap the Whirlwind&quot; - Hosea 8:1-14

It is time to end religious welfare. Not only should religious organizations and their personnel pay their fair share of real estate, income, sales, and all the other taxes, user fees, etc. that everyone else pays but they be charged retro-actively for say 3 to 10 years, depending on their IRS audits. Hell, the back taxes on the the catholics (all that blood money) alone should eliminate the deficit with monies left over to pay for Medicare and Social Secutity into the next century.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;They Sow the Wind, and Reap the Whirlwind&#8221; &#8211; Hosea 8:1-14</p>
<p>It is time to end religious welfare. Not only should religious organizations and their personnel pay their fair share of real estate, income, sales, and all the other taxes, user fees, etc. that everyone else pays but they be charged retro-actively for say 3 to 10 years, depending on their IRS audits. Hell, the back taxes on the the catholics (all that blood money) alone should eliminate the deficit with monies left over to pay for Medicare and Social Secutity into the next century.</p>
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		<title>By: Dave Mabell</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22855</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Mabell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 06:13:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22855</guid>
		<description>What an astounding difference in attitudes, south of the 49th. In Canada, churches have ALWAYS been involved (for better or worse) in political discourse. Over the years, many of our provincial premiers or federal MPs have either been ordained clery, or very active in major churches like the Catholic, Anglican or the United Church of Canada -- the largest Protestant denominatiom, and now the loudest proponent of GLBTQ rights. (Didn&#039;t expect it would be the Catholics or Mormons, did you?)
  That includes openly GLBTQ ministers and elected officials, of course.
  Our churches are registered charities, but they&#039;ve always been expected to speak out on issues of the day like the economy, the capitalist system, public health care coverage, First Nations rights, the environment, tarsands mining, public day care for working moms&#039;s kids, racism, the &quot;war on drugs,&quot; the Middle East wars... anything the Canadian public is debating. 
  And frankly, that&#039;s exactly the same as in most European democracies, not to forget Australasia. It&#039;s somehow become an American mindset that &quot;separation of church and state&quot; has become another &quot;don&#039;t ask, don&#039;t tell&quot; taboo.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What an astounding difference in attitudes, south of the 49th. In Canada, churches have ALWAYS been involved (for better or worse) in political discourse. Over the years, many of our provincial premiers or federal MPs have either been ordained clery, or very active in major churches like the Catholic, Anglican or the United Church of Canada &#8212; the largest Protestant denominatiom, and now the loudest proponent of GLBTQ rights. (Didn&#8217;t expect it would be the Catholics or Mormons, did you?)<br />
  That includes openly GLBTQ ministers and elected officials, of course.<br />
  Our churches are registered charities, but they&#8217;ve always been expected to speak out on issues of the day like the economy, the capitalist system, public health care coverage, First Nations rights, the environment, tarsands mining, public day care for working moms&#8217;s kids, racism, the &#8220;war on drugs,&#8221; the Middle East wars&#8230; anything the Canadian public is debating.<br />
  And frankly, that&#8217;s exactly the same as in most European democracies, not to forget Australasia. It&#8217;s somehow become an American mindset that &#8220;separation of church and state&#8221; has become another &#8220;don&#8217;t ask, don&#8217;t tell&#8221; taboo.</p>
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		<title>By: Steve</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22853</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 30 Sep 2008 05:51:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22853</guid>
		<description>Under our constitution, clergy are perfectly free to say whatever they please.  But, if you want to engage in political partisanship, you lose your tax-exempt status.  That is not a restriction on speech.  It is merely taxing them the same as other political partisan corporations. 

To be completely fair, we should not distinguish between a church and any other kind of corporation.  Every corporation should have to pay income tax, without regard to what they do to generate the income.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Under our constitution, clergy are perfectly free to say whatever they please.  But, if you want to engage in political partisanship, you lose your tax-exempt status.  That is not a restriction on speech.  It is merely taxing them the same as other political partisan corporations. </p>
<p>To be completely fair, we should not distinguish between a church and any other kind of corporation.  Every corporation should have to pay income tax, without regard to what they do to generate the income.</p>
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		<title>By: Trace</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-3/#comment-22812</link>
		<dc:creator>Trace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:37:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22812</guid>
		<description>Another reason to implement the Fair Tax.  We would not have an issue as far as the taxes and the churches could do as they saw fit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason to implement the Fair Tax.  We would not have an issue as far as the taxes and the churches could do as they saw fit.</p>
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		<title>By: Lee</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-2/#comment-22811</link>
		<dc:creator>Lee</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 22:28:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22811</guid>
		<description>These so-called Christians, are nothing more than the American Taliban. They should not be tax-exempt.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These so-called Christians, are nothing more than the American Taliban. They should not be tax-exempt.</p>
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		<title>By: Wes</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/anti-gay-pastors-in-civil-disobedience-protest/comment-page-2/#comment-22806</link>
		<dc:creator>Wes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 29 Sep 2008 21:46:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=3460#comment-22806</guid>
		<description>First of all I think the government and the Bar associations should go after the lawyers who encouraged churches to break the law. Isn&#039;t that against their own ethics like &quot;Do no harm&quot; is to a doctor?  I would lose my license to practice if I encouraged my clients to break the law (therapist). 

Then go after the churches who knowingly broke the law. Why are they above the rules any more than any business that practices outside the law. 

Churches, not all but most, have become tax exempt big businesses who put money into acquiring property, playing the stocks,  and turning a sunday sermon in to a theatrical event with the sole purpose of raising more money. Look at how wealthy some of the TV evangelists are all in the name if God. It is a shame and should be taxed just like I am and any other business is. A true non profit actually uses the income to help those in the world who need it. Tax them if they are going to break the law. They deserve it. And disbar the lawyers who encouraged it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First of all I think the government and the Bar associations should go after the lawyers who encouraged churches to break the law. Isn&#8217;t that against their own ethics like &#8220;Do no harm&#8221; is to a doctor?  I would lose my license to practice if I encouraged my clients to break the law (therapist). </p>
<p>Then go after the churches who knowingly broke the law. Why are they above the rules any more than any business that practices outside the law. </p>
<p>Churches, not all but most, have become tax exempt big businesses who put money into acquiring property, playing the stocks,  and turning a sunday sermon in to a theatrical event with the sole purpose of raising more money. Look at how wealthy some of the TV evangelists are all in the name if God. It is a shame and should be taxed just like I am and any other business is. A true non profit actually uses the income to help those in the world who need it. Tax them if they are going to break the law. They deserve it. And disbar the lawyers who encouraged it.</p>
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