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	<title>Comments on: Lawsuit Over Police Shooting Of Gay Man</title>
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		<title>By: ts</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-28194</link>
		<dc:creator>ts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 06 Nov 2008 03:40:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-28194</guid>
		<description>Valentino could you pleae email me if its ok that I ask one question to you?
thanks</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Valentino could you pleae email me if its ok that I ask one question to you?<br />
thanks</p>
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		<title>By: Valentino</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7691</link>
		<dc:creator>Valentino</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 10:32:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7691</guid>
		<description>This is an unfortunate situation whereby the only other witness to this tragic incident is dead.  I knew Steve and have never experienced any form of physical violence from his persona.  My condolences go out to his bereaved family. In one way or another the truth will come out and with respect to Steve hopefully justice will be served. Steve had his life cut short by individuals who seemed to lack the training to protect human life, on the contrary they took away something no amount of money can replace.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is an unfortunate situation whereby the only other witness to this tragic incident is dead.  I knew Steve and have never experienced any form of physical violence from his persona.  My condolences go out to his bereaved family. In one way or another the truth will come out and with respect to Steve hopefully justice will be served. Steve had his life cut short by individuals who seemed to lack the training to protect human life, on the contrary they took away something no amount of money can replace.</p>
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		<title>By: MNBear</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7645</link>
		<dc:creator>MNBear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 Jul 2008 01:41:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7645</guid>
		<description>&quot;Not acceptable&quot;?  Let&#039;s talk about what&#039;s &quot;not acceptable&quot;.  Assaulting a cop and attempting to grab his gun - if this is indeed what happened - is &quot;not acceptable&quot;.  And it would not be TREATED as acceptable by any jury in this country, regardless of the sexual orientation of the attacker.  Now, if other facts or testimony end up showing that this isn&#039;t really what happened (e.g. that Hirschfeld wasn&#039;t really being aggressive toward the officers, or that they exaggerated the threat he posed)... or if we find out that the cops behaved in a homophobic manner toward Hirschfeld BEFORE any aggression he might have committed (i.e. intensified the situation by way of discriminatory treatment)... then we might have grounds for some of the conclusions that are being drawn here.  But until we know more than an eight-paragraph news story can tell us, refraining from such strong judgments would seem to be the most fair and prudent course of action.  Heavy accusations, such as police brutality and unjustified killing, should only be made on the very strongest of evidence.

Keep in mind, neither this post nor my first advocates in any way for simply &quot;taking the side of the cops&quot;.  All I&#039;m saying is that the entirety of the facts must be considered -- and the legal process, while it may not be perfect, is the best mechanism we&#039;ve been able to develop thus far for determining the truth of disputed issues.  During the course of the trial, we MAY (or may not) determine that these individual cops were innocent of any wrongdoing.  And if there&#039;s anyone in the world who should understand how wrong it is to judge people as a group, or on insufficient evidence, I would think it would be us in the GLBTQ community.  For instance, remember the old assumption - still heard in many places! - that all gay men are pedophiles?  Doesn&#039;t it make you incredibly angry to be placed in an odious category where you don&#039;t deserve to be?  Well, I&#039;d have to assume that &quot;good eggs&quot; in law enforcement feel the same way about being generalized as thugs owing to the actions of SOME other cops who are... yet this is exactly what some of the comments here are doing -- assuming aggression and homophobia were present, from little more information than the fact that the shooter is a cop and the victim was gay.  Sorry, but when the GLBTQ community says &quot;whaddaya expect, they&#039;re cops&quot;, it&#039;s just as unfair as when the Religious Right says &quot;whaddaya expect, they&#039;re queers&quot;.

And PJ, I&#039;d have to be blind to deny your basic premise that there&#039;s been a lot of homophobic violence perpetuated by cops throughout American history, or that interactions with law enforcement are a setting in which we as a community more commonly face discrimination.  But, like any wrongful act, these are only fairly attributable to the individuals who actually commit them.  Until a fair trial demonstrates anything else (and it *might* - that&#039;s why we conduct one!), the only thing the San Diego officers have in common with those cops who HAVE perpetuated homophobia is the fact that they wear a badge.

(Incidentally, at first I was amazed to hear that case-by-case assessment, and reservation of judgment until full facts are presented, now constitute &quot;straight-wannabe conformity&quot;.  Then I realized that, as a long-term avowed agnostic, I&#039;m already more than familiar with the basic excluded-middle paradigm.  The agnostic position is essentially rooted in an objection of insufficient *evidence* for God&#039;s existence -- yet the Catholics think we actively judge religious people, and the atheists think we&#039;ve actively decided to be chicken-s--t.  So I suppose it&#039;s *understandable* that people who come into a situation having already decided they hate the cops would misread a neutral &quot;wait and see&quot; response as actively pro-cop -- but that doesn&#039;t render any less distressing our society&#039;s increasing tendency toward rashness and rancor).

And as for &quot;bowing to authority&quot;: sorry, but I don&#039;t think that failure to jump to conclusions is evidence of affliction with Stockholm syndrome; I don&#039;t think that the possible approaches to a political question can be divided neatly into Justifiable Rage Of The Entitled and Capitulation Of The Shrinking Violet; and I don&#039;t think that judging individual cases as individual cases will lead inexorably to another Holocaust.  (If anything, too much *generalization* runs the risk of providing a fertile host for the sort of hatred and animus that, left unchecked, leads humanity in such tragic directions...)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Not acceptable&#8221;?  Let&#8217;s talk about what&#8217;s &#8220;not acceptable&#8221;.  Assaulting a cop and attempting to grab his gun &#8211; if this is indeed what happened &#8211; is &#8220;not acceptable&#8221;.  And it would not be TREATED as acceptable by any jury in this country, regardless of the sexual orientation of the attacker.  Now, if other facts or testimony end up showing that this isn&#8217;t really what happened (e.g. that Hirschfeld wasn&#8217;t really being aggressive toward the officers, or that they exaggerated the threat he posed)&#8230; or if we find out that the cops behaved in a homophobic manner toward Hirschfeld BEFORE any aggression he might have committed (i.e. intensified the situation by way of discriminatory treatment)&#8230; then we might have grounds for some of the conclusions that are being drawn here.  But until we know more than an eight-paragraph news story can tell us, refraining from such strong judgments would seem to be the most fair and prudent course of action.  Heavy accusations, such as police brutality and unjustified killing, should only be made on the very strongest of evidence.</p>
<p>Keep in mind, neither this post nor my first advocates in any way for simply &#8220;taking the side of the cops&#8221;.  All I&#8217;m saying is that the entirety of the facts must be considered &#8212; and the legal process, while it may not be perfect, is the best mechanism we&#8217;ve been able to develop thus far for determining the truth of disputed issues.  During the course of the trial, we MAY (or may not) determine that these individual cops were innocent of any wrongdoing.  And if there&#8217;s anyone in the world who should understand how wrong it is to judge people as a group, or on insufficient evidence, I would think it would be us in the GLBTQ community.  For instance, remember the old assumption &#8211; still heard in many places! &#8211; that all gay men are pedophiles?  Doesn&#8217;t it make you incredibly angry to be placed in an odious category where you don&#8217;t deserve to be?  Well, I&#8217;d have to assume that &#8220;good eggs&#8221; in law enforcement feel the same way about being generalized as thugs owing to the actions of SOME other cops who are&#8230; yet this is exactly what some of the comments here are doing &#8212; assuming aggression and homophobia were present, from little more information than the fact that the shooter is a cop and the victim was gay.  Sorry, but when the GLBTQ community says &#8220;whaddaya expect, they&#8217;re cops&#8221;, it&#8217;s just as unfair as when the Religious Right says &#8220;whaddaya expect, they&#8217;re queers&#8221;.</p>
<p>And PJ, I&#8217;d have to be blind to deny your basic premise that there&#8217;s been a lot of homophobic violence perpetuated by cops throughout American history, or that interactions with law enforcement are a setting in which we as a community more commonly face discrimination.  But, like any wrongful act, these are only fairly attributable to the individuals who actually commit them.  Until a fair trial demonstrates anything else (and it *might* &#8211; that&#8217;s why we conduct one!), the only thing the San Diego officers have in common with those cops who HAVE perpetuated homophobia is the fact that they wear a badge.</p>
<p>(Incidentally, at first I was amazed to hear that case-by-case assessment, and reservation of judgment until full facts are presented, now constitute &#8220;straight-wannabe conformity&#8221;.  Then I realized that, as a long-term avowed agnostic, I&#8217;m already more than familiar with the basic excluded-middle paradigm.  The agnostic position is essentially rooted in an objection of insufficient *evidence* for God&#8217;s existence &#8212; yet the Catholics think we actively judge religious people, and the atheists think we&#8217;ve actively decided to be chicken-s&#8211;t.  So I suppose it&#8217;s *understandable* that people who come into a situation having already decided they hate the cops would misread a neutral &#8220;wait and see&#8221; response as actively pro-cop &#8212; but that doesn&#8217;t render any less distressing our society&#8217;s increasing tendency toward rashness and rancor).</p>
<p>And as for &#8220;bowing to authority&#8221;: sorry, but I don&#8217;t think that failure to jump to conclusions is evidence of affliction with Stockholm syndrome; I don&#8217;t think that the possible approaches to a political question can be divided neatly into Justifiable Rage Of The Entitled and Capitulation Of The Shrinking Violet; and I don&#8217;t think that judging individual cases as individual cases will lead inexorably to another Holocaust.  (If anything, too much *generalization* runs the risk of providing a fertile host for the sort of hatred and animus that, left unchecked, leads humanity in such tragic directions&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: jason</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7613</link>
		<dc:creator>jason</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 21:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7613</guid>
		<description>I am an &quot;out&quot; gay cop in the deep south.  I haven&#039;t seen enough facts in this case to jump on either bandwagon.  I do find a few of the comments on here disturbing.  Especially the comment referring to police as &quot;the attackers&quot;.  That is not an accurate depiction of a modern police department.  A significant amount of law enforcment officers are homosexual/bisexual.  For all we know, one of the officers involved in the incident was a member of our community.  I realize that there is such a thing as a bad cop.  My experience is limited to my area but I have noticed that kind does not last long.  So I will wait on the facts to surface before I make a judgement either way.  Mob mentality is much more dangerous than local law enforcement.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am an &#8220;out&#8221; gay cop in the deep south.  I haven&#8217;t seen enough facts in this case to jump on either bandwagon.  I do find a few of the comments on here disturbing.  Especially the comment referring to police as &#8220;the attackers&#8221;.  That is not an accurate depiction of a modern police department.  A significant amount of law enforcment officers are homosexual/bisexual.  For all we know, one of the officers involved in the incident was a member of our community.  I realize that there is such a thing as a bad cop.  My experience is limited to my area but I have noticed that kind does not last long.  So I will wait on the facts to surface before I make a judgement either way.  Mob mentality is much more dangerous than local law enforcement.</p>
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		<title>By: M. Stone</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7566</link>
		<dc:creator>M. Stone</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:40:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7566</guid>
		<description>After reading the article and comments about this tragic event, I agree that a little more than &quot;let&#039;s just be cool and let the lawyers handle it&quot; seems a little too naive.
Having grown up in an era of american intolerance toward gay and transgendered people I know that if this kind of attitude continues in the gay community that more trouble will continue unchecked.  Straight people need to know that this is intolerable and  in this day and age unacceptable. They need to hear that message loud and clear</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After reading the article and comments about this tragic event, I agree that a little more than &#8220;let&#8217;s just be cool and let the lawyers handle it&#8221; seems a little too naive.<br />
Having grown up in an era of american intolerance toward gay and transgendered people I know that if this kind of attitude continues in the gay community that more trouble will continue unchecked.  Straight people need to know that this is intolerable and  in this day and age unacceptable. They need to hear that message loud and clear</p>
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		<title>By: Jim</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7565</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 15:18:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7565</guid>
		<description>First my condolences to Mr. Hirschfield&#039;s family and friends.  Second, of all the postings here, the one from MNBear makes the most sense.  Look, I&#039;m a gay man and I&#039;m a cop and from what few facts that can be gleaned from the 7/25 report and an earlier 7/21 report on 365 gay, it is impossible to draw any of the conclusions expressed in these comments based on fact.  Before you all leap to conclusions, how about waiting for the evidence, like the ME&#039;s determination and the tox report, any medical report on injuries to the cop who was allegedly assaulted with the taser, any information on how long Mr. Hirschfield had been aboard the police launch before he was shot, any statements by the harbor cops concerning how or how long they struggled wiht Mr. Hirschfield; that is to say, facts that might actually shed some light on all this.  As for the quote &quot;The attorney said that autopsy results show Hirschfield was not the aggressor and that there was no evidence on the body that he had struggled with police prior to being shot.&quot;, Mr. Claypool maybe a little premature as well.  Again there&#039;s insufficient information in the 365 gay report to draw a conclusion.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>First my condolences to Mr. Hirschfield&#8217;s family and friends.  Second, of all the postings here, the one from MNBear makes the most sense.  Look, I&#8217;m a gay man and I&#8217;m a cop and from what few facts that can be gleaned from the 7/25 report and an earlier 7/21 report on 365 gay, it is impossible to draw any of the conclusions expressed in these comments based on fact.  Before you all leap to conclusions, how about waiting for the evidence, like the ME&#8217;s determination and the tox report, any medical report on injuries to the cop who was allegedly assaulted with the taser, any information on how long Mr. Hirschfield had been aboard the police launch before he was shot, any statements by the harbor cops concerning how or how long they struggled wiht Mr. Hirschfield; that is to say, facts that might actually shed some light on all this.  As for the quote &#8220;The attorney said that autopsy results show Hirschfield was not the aggressor and that there was no evidence on the body that he had struggled with police prior to being shot.&#8221;, Mr. Claypool maybe a little premature as well.  Again there&#8217;s insufficient information in the 365 gay report to draw a conclusion.</p>
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		<title>By: PJ</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7556</link>
		<dc:creator>PJ</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Jul 2008 14:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7556</guid>
		<description>I can hardly believe that any sane gay person would give the police in this case the benefit of the doubt. I have to doubt that the pro-cop comments here were written by gay people. Cops (or people like them) have been murdering, beating, harassing and imprisoning gay men forever. This is just another extreme case. The cops will get off, of course. Partially because the gay population right now has been placated by token pro-gay sentiments here and there. There is no gay rage, gay movement for true justice and freedom. All we have is straight-wannabe conformity, as evidenced here. Well, ask someone who lost a relative in the Holocaust where bowing to authority leads you.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I can hardly believe that any sane gay person would give the police in this case the benefit of the doubt. I have to doubt that the pro-cop comments here were written by gay people. Cops (or people like them) have been murdering, beating, harassing and imprisoning gay men forever. This is just another extreme case. The cops will get off, of course. Partially because the gay population right now has been placated by token pro-gay sentiments here and there. There is no gay rage, gay movement for true justice and freedom. All we have is straight-wannabe conformity, as evidenced here. Well, ask someone who lost a relative in the Holocaust where bowing to authority leads you.</p>
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		<title>By: MNBear</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7493</link>
		<dc:creator>MNBear</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 27 Jul 2008 23:24:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7493</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s really tragic how we as a community bifurcate ourselves every time we have one of these high-profile unfortunate events.  One side of these comments essentially boils down to &quot;it&#039;s the fault of the whole gay community for being permissive toward alcohol and drugs&quot; (a statement both overly broad in scope and insufficiently particularized to the events at hand), and/or &quot;he deserved it for being a mindless party boy&quot; (an incredibly mean-spirited reaction, rooted in a completely unsubstantiated factual allegation).  And the other side jumps to conclusions just as badly, by ascribing possibly-undeserved negative motives to these officers (and/or the entire police profession).  Here&#039;s an idea: how about we chill on the wild-eyed speculation (either for or against the cops), stop trying to draw these extremely attenuated connections to broader gay politics, and simply trust our adversarial justice system to get down to the facts.  In other words, let&#039;s just calm down and let the attorneys for each side get to the real issue: whether these particular officers, under the facts of the particular situation, were legally justified in believing that this particular individual posed enough of a threat to their safety to warrant an aggressive response.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s really tragic how we as a community bifurcate ourselves every time we have one of these high-profile unfortunate events.  One side of these comments essentially boils down to &#8220;it&#8217;s the fault of the whole gay community for being permissive toward alcohol and drugs&#8221; (a statement both overly broad in scope and insufficiently particularized to the events at hand), and/or &#8220;he deserved it for being a mindless party boy&#8221; (an incredibly mean-spirited reaction, rooted in a completely unsubstantiated factual allegation).  And the other side jumps to conclusions just as badly, by ascribing possibly-undeserved negative motives to these officers (and/or the entire police profession).  Here&#8217;s an idea: how about we chill on the wild-eyed speculation (either for or against the cops), stop trying to draw these extremely attenuated connections to broader gay politics, and simply trust our adversarial justice system to get down to the facts.  In other words, let&#8217;s just calm down and let the attorneys for each side get to the real issue: whether these particular officers, under the facts of the particular situation, were legally justified in believing that this particular individual posed enough of a threat to their safety to warrant an aggressive response.</p>
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		<title>By: Castro Lane</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7401</link>
		<dc:creator>Castro Lane</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:48:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7401</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s just about time we formed our own Militia which we can take on cruises and elsewhere. which we can post in our neighborhoods and stand guard at our weddings. Which we can use to protect our children in schools. It is obvious that the so-called &#039;Good People&#039; of American - read christian/straight - want us dead-dead-dead. Time to fight back. We have a constitutional right to be protected by the officers who taxes we pay. Failing that, we have a constitutionaly right to life/liberty and happiness AND the right to bear ARMS. &#039;Cause ignoring it, or sending happy thoughts at our attackers is not working. The reason we have any kind of freedom here in the US is because of the Stonewall Riots where Gay Men in NY poured into the streets and attacked the attackers. They sure woke up and took notice then! Fight hate with hate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s just about time we formed our own Militia which we can take on cruises and elsewhere. which we can post in our neighborhoods and stand guard at our weddings. Which we can use to protect our children in schools. It is obvious that the so-called &#8216;Good People&#8217; of American &#8211; read christian/straight &#8211; want us dead-dead-dead. Time to fight back. We have a constitutional right to be protected by the officers who taxes we pay. Failing that, we have a constitutionaly right to life/liberty and happiness AND the right to bear ARMS. &#8216;Cause ignoring it, or sending happy thoughts at our attackers is not working. The reason we have any kind of freedom here in the US is because of the Stonewall Riots where Gay Men in NY poured into the streets and attacked the attackers. They sure woke up and took notice then! Fight hate with hate.</p>
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		<title>By: Matt</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/news/072508-san-diego-lawsuit/comment-page-1/#comment-7395</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Jul 2008 20:23:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2285#comment-7395</guid>
		<description>I think that gay men need to step up and start taking responsibility for their actions. I&#039;m sick of the culture of vicimhood. We&#039;re not fighting Stonewall and Castro anymore, there&#039;s gay marriage in California, New York and Massachusetts! 

This guy, by all acounts, was a man-child &#039;dancer/bodybuilder/actor&#039; - obviously contributing a lot to our society. These allegations are not being made by the HRC or community activists, but by his parent&#039;s CIVIL attorney, who wants to sue. 

It just seems much more likely that this guy was just another drugged out party-boy who had too much (we&#039;ve all seen them!) , other than a brutal murder by professional law enforcement. 

Step up, guys! There&#039;s more to life than the gym and the dance floor! Stop objectifying yourself and others!! Be men!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think that gay men need to step up and start taking responsibility for their actions. I&#8217;m sick of the culture of vicimhood. We&#8217;re not fighting Stonewall and Castro anymore, there&#8217;s gay marriage in California, New York and Massachusetts! </p>
<p>This guy, by all acounts, was a man-child &#8216;dancer/bodybuilder/actor&#8217; &#8211; obviously contributing a lot to our society. These allegations are not being made by the HRC or community activists, but by his parent&#8217;s CIVIL attorney, who wants to sue. </p>
<p>It just seems much more likely that this guy was just another drugged out party-boy who had too much (we&#8217;ve all seen them!) , other than a brutal murder by professional law enforcement. </p>
<p>Step up, guys! There&#8217;s more to life than the gym and the dance floor! Stop objectifying yourself and others!! Be men!</p>
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