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Loading ...Video: Newsweek’s religious case for gay marriage
Newsweek’s provocative cover story this week explores what the Bible really says about gay people, gay marriage, even gay sex.
“The Bible’s view of marriage is nothing like the way we view marriage today,” Miller told 365gay News. “There are all kinds of ways to interpret it because the Bible was written three or 4,000 years ago, for a world that looks completely unlike our own.”
Newsweek editor Jon Meacham predicted the predictable backlash in his column, and Richard Land of the Southern Baptist Convention soon followed up.
Here’s how Newsweek laid out the religious case for gay marriage.
“There are four or so verses that are quoted over and over and over by the religious right against homosexuality,” Miller told 365gay News.
“Two of them are in Leviticus, two of them are in Paul, and there’s a verse in Genesis. I went to those verses and I talked to scholars about them, progressive scholars, and I said, is there another way to interpret this, besides just condemning homosexuality as an abomination?”
“The argument I’ve been getting the most is the Adam and Eve argument. Marriage is between a man and a woman,” Miller said.
“There’s a verse in Genesis that says when a man leaves his family he should cleave to his wife and they should become one. The problem with that verse is that it was written in a universe where men were polygamists, and as one Bible scholar I talked to said, you know he should cleave to his wife but how many wives?”
As for Leviticus, where passages refer to sex between men as “an abomination,” Miller said that’s part of a book of rules for a world very different from today.
“This was a very particular world and there are all kinds of rules in there about blood sacrifices and the best way to kill an animal. You have to say, look these rules just don’t apply themselves anymore. We don’t do weird haircuts, we don’t do blood sacrifices…. why do we have to take these two verses about human sexuality so seriously when three pages later there’s instructions on the best price to pay for a slave whether it’s a man, woman, child or old person? Let’s be real about how useful this book is to us.”
Miller pointed out that while there is no passage in the Bible that refers to sex between women, she thinks the discomfort with gay marriage is grounded in discomfort over gay sex.
“The scholars I talked to especially about the verses in Paul say that the condemnation of gay sex in Paul is really a condemnation of the worst kind of craven, licentious, debauched behavior that in fact Paul was talking about the behavior of the Roman emperors Caligula and Nero, who everybody in the first century would have known were just bad, bad people. His condemnation of it is a condemnation of a sort of general wickedness and promiscuity, and that in fact what Paul argued for, is family stability.”
“Get married, don’t get divorced. That was a big thing for Paul, stay together. It’s actually a socially conservative argument. Get married, stay married, it’s good for society, it’s good for kids, it’s good for families. Love and the experiment of trying to stay loving even through difficult times is a very Christian endeavor. Let’s try to give that to everybody.”
Miller said she was most moved by what she learned about the Bible’s true message of inclusion and love.
“The message of Jesus is to reach out to everybody. God loves everybody. A priest quoted to me Psalm 139 which is, ‘I am wonderfully and fearfully made.’ It’s a Psalm about how God sees inside you, your most secret self, even the parts of you that you don’t show to the world. And it’s a wonderful argument for gay marriage. It’s like, God loves all of us, in all of our beauty, in all of our imperfection. Why would he discern between us based on something like sexual orientation? He wouldn’t. I found that a very moving argument and it was inspiring to me.”
Honestly, who cares what the Bible says? I live how I want to live.
The fact that this approach to this civil rights debacle is taken seriously just underlines the real problem about this issue in this country.
This is not a theocratic issue. Unless, of course, the government of the United States is basing its laws or testing its function by/for religion.
Which, of course, is unconstitutional.
But, then again, voting to take away civil rights is also unconstitutional.
I’d be concerned, if the United States wasn’t actually a theocratic oligarchy.
As a theocratic oligarchy, it’s operating really really well.
Just like, say, Iran.
I’m with otter on this …….
We should file the “Harvey Milk Memorial Church of the Living Christ” ….. and make Gay Marriage a sacrament ….. and won’t communion be fun!
Beat these hate merchants at their own game.
Has anyone thought to file massive numbers of complaints to the consumer fraud department of the various state attorney general’s offices, about the false advertising these “churches” do?
These frauds are selling “eternal life”, and, “salvation”, in a make believe “heaven”, ruled
by a mass murdering psychopathic “God”,
who demands worship, under threat of slaughter of your first born, or eternal “damnation”.
That is patently insane, and a fraud of epic proportions.
We hold all business accountable for false advertising and fraud, but give these lunatics with their talking snakes, virgin births, arks full of dinosaurs, and resurrections, a free pass.
These loons have been waiting 2000 years for the second coming . .. that’s rough on the knees!
That Newsweek would even give credence to the bible is insane. Organized religions have ancient books written by ancient men about the rules of all-knowing, all-seeing, invisible beings who hang out everywhere watching and judging us…. or simply hang out loving us and not judging us (still crazy). Who gives two hoots what irrational cultists and their doctrines “really” say about us?
Kate, I’m guessing it just kills you that there are so many gays and lesbians that profess faith?
Trace Said:
“Kate, I’m guessing it just kills you that there are so many gays and lesbians that profess faith?”
It’s so many people who profess faith who kill lesbians and gays; THAT’S what “kills” me.
I am rather conflicted on this article.
I read this Newsweek article just the other day. When it comes to all things religious in nature, especially coming from within Judeo-Christo-Islamic tradition, there is little if any room for rationalism, reason or logic. While there are plenty of faith communities which welcome gays and lesbians, who bless our marriages and embrace us as equals there are far more who don’t. Christians have been arguing for more than a thousand years on the true nature of the Eucharist. Lutherans, Episcopalians and mainstream Protestants view the wine as symbolic of the blood of Jesus. Catholics, Orthodox and many Eastern rite Churches believe that the wine becomes the PHYSICAL blood of Jesus. Now, why does this matter? Because this minutia of doctrine and dogma has been a major source of contention for hundreds if not thousands of years. Some denominations don’t even regard Eucharist/Communion as a sacrament. Bible verses and traditions have been hurled back and forth for centuries regarding this small insignificant doctrinal disagreement, so we should be prepared for LOTS of people of faith not to be convinced by one person’s reading of the Bible. Oh SHOCK!!
When it comes to gay rights, we need to take the moral high ground of keeping our arguments in the realm of the secular, rational, logical and scientific arena. Theology, unlike the rest, is as St Thomas Aquinas so eloquently put it “by faith alone we know these things are true”. We need to avoid theological debates, first because most faith based people stubbornly hold fast to what they believe regardless of proof, because they believe that evidence is here to “deceive the very elect”. Also, theology is a quagmire, which once we delve into it, we cannot escape it. So we need to keep our arguments for equality outside this realm.
I am a strong advocate of secular government, Free thought, freedom of/from religion because I myself hold religious beliefs out of the mainstream. Because I realize that my freedom of religion comes at the price of not imposing it on others. But by the same token, for me to respect the freedom of religion of others, they also have to refrain from pushing their religion on me or others.
Gay and lesbian people of faith and welcoming faith communities need to make the argument that denying gay people rights is by extension discrimination against them based on faith. However, public policy should not be based on faith, whether it be homophobic religion or gay welcoming religion. Theological arguments in favor of gay equality should be kept in the place of worship.
Whether it’s fraud in the soft sciences, easily overcome by administering MRI polygraphs or genuine rebuttal to the propaganda dispensed by LGBT columnists,…….you can not win or normalize neurotic behavior and its associated paraphilias without replicable, empirical data or collusion amongst the three federal branches of government with the socially liberal bodies of the APA(s) and the ABA.
http://robgagnon.net/ArticlesOnline.htm
Rodney, I agree with your post. I think much of the problem comes from the evangelical denominations. They tend to believe in “spreading the word.” (Funny, the concept always reminded me of Fraternity and Sorority Rush.) As an Episcopalian, we are taught to be of conscience and of faith. But, that faith is not something to be shouting from the rooftops or to impose on others. As several have mentioned, faith is a private and personal matter. I would not begin to impose my religious views upon others. It’s unfortunate that some of the more narcissistic people that practice the religion of atheism do.
And by the way Ramon, we can do a comparison of those that have murdered and claim to be people of and without faith.
Trace you are indeed my favorite Lesbotarian, are you an Episcopagan, Anglo-Catholic, WASPy English traditionalist, Low Church, High Church, Incense and Latin, Incense and Middle English or recovered Roman Catholic Episcopalian?
I went from Pentecostalism to Islam to Wicca. I have been Wiccan for almost 18 years now, but while being a pagan I have studied the Kabballah(before Madonna), Baha’i, Sufism I dabbled in Unity Church and Episcopalianism(of the Episcopagan & High Church with beautiful masses variety).
I believe in syncretism that the Gods manifest themselves in different names, forms and avatars depending on the culture the Gods/Goddesses are speaking to. But I have a problem with rigid monotheist orthodoxy, with the exception of Judaism. Monotheists have the “one god, one faith, one baptism, this is the only way to heaven” mentality. I find that monotheists account for the majority of religious intolerance.
As far as spiritual relativism, there are faiths which are more true and more worthy of respect then others. To me, it’s not if one believes in L Ron Hubbard, Joseph Smith, Mary Baker Eddy or Baha’u'allah but how you treat your fellow man. I also judge religions on the basis of how they treat gays and lesbians, not only in society but in their own faith groups.
There is a scripture from the New Testament, “By their fruits ye shall know them” and this is the yard stick I judge religious people and their faiths. Muslims can’t stand it because they believe their faith is perfect and beyond reproach yet Muslims are imperfect. I judge Islam not only by the Quran and their “prophet” but by the actions, lives and achievements of Muslims. When it comes to all other denominations of Christianity and groups like Scientology, etc, I judge them by their actions and beliefs.
Do people have the freedom of religion? Yes, regardless of my opinion of their religion or how ridiculous their beliefs, as long as the faith group in question respects my rights(including the right to marry and be free of discrimination) I respect their rights. This means, if an Orthodox Synagogue doesn’t sanctify gay unions because it goes against their religion, that is their right. As long as they respect my right to marry civilly and religiously according to my own faith, then I respect their right not to believe in my marriage. HOWEVER, if they seek to limit my rights, both my civil rights and my religious freedoms, to put public policy in line with their Judaic law, then I have no moral obligation to respect their rights.
But this entire Newsweek Article, seems so christo-centric in its appeal. And only a small handful of protestant denominations would even entertain the argument presented. The article should have been published in Christianity Today not Newsweek. There is already too much religious discussion and debate in society. Religion, like parenting and sex, is a personal and private thing. Talking about religion and beliefs in public is often akin to public display of affection or one talking about one’s most intimate and private moments. It’s tacky to say the least.
I was watching a television add for a oil change and auto shop and the add had some guy talking about his Lord Jesus Christ. Even in Nashville Tennessee, there are people who are not Christian and business and religion should never mix lest your business practices take the Lord’s name in vain.
Religion and one’s belief in his/her purpose and reason for existence are all very personal issues. One needn’t religion to have a purpose and meaning in life, and religion doesn’t always give someone a purpose or meaning.
Gay people are a diverse group coming from every faith group, background, social class, color, nationality, tongue and creed. Not all gay Americans are Christian, so using Christian theology to justify marriage equality and gay rights has the potential to divide more than unite. So we should keep our movement’s focus on the secular/rational high road. Individual gay groups(i.e. Affirmation, Dignity, Integrity, Al-Fatiha, etc) within their own respective faith groups should address issues of faith, while as a whole we need to avoid being bogged down in the ideological quagmire that is theology.
I guess I slipped up a bit LOrion, I had forgotten that a lot of people that claim to be “Christian” do not in fact think on their own, but are led around by their pastors, priests and other assorted church hierarchy. Testament to this is my own personal experience with my Mother who adopted the Jehovah’s Witness faith back in the 1950’s when she married my step-father. She was a young and vulnerable woman at the time, the Church saw this and believe me they swooped in like a flock of eagles. Sadly, Mom has just turned 80, her religion has been disowned by all six of her children as each one has successfully left home to pursue their own lives. She rarely, if ever talks to her children, and when she does, she cannot speak of anything other then her bible, her Jehovah’s Witness friends, and how Jehovah helps her forget all of the sins and evil in this world. My mother basically lost her life so many years ago when the Church came in and took over!
Trace: “And by the way Ramon, we can do a comparison of those that have murdered and claim to be people of and without faith.”
That’s a lot of compilation, but I for one will read your tome when you publish it.
@ TRACE:
“I would not begin to impose my religious views upon others. It’s unfortunate that some of the more narcissistic people that practice the religion of atheism do.”
Uh, excuse me, but those two sentences don’t make sense in juxtaposition. Either atheists have the right to DEMAND that the dominant Christian culture be restrained, or they don’t.
The CONSTITUTION says they do.
BTW, I’m also a life-long Episcopalian.
@RJLigier:
Rob Gagnon is KEWT. REAL husband material. Shame he’s such a brain-dead bigot, PhD from Princeton notwithstanding.
Australia got the prisoners; we got the Calvinists; Australia got the better deal. Sheesh! I thought conservative anti-ANGLICANS were bad. Conservative Pres-DUH!-terians have got them beat ALL to heck.
You said:
“you can not win or normalize neurotic behavior and its associated paraphilias without replicable, empirical data or collusion amongst the three federal branches of government with the socially liberal bodies of the APA(s) and the ABA.”
OOOHHH!!! I just LOVE fascist conspiracy theories. They’re SO *entertaining*. Um, you forgot the AMA, ECUSA’s General Convention, the Religious Society of Friends (Quakers), the Unitarian-Universalists, the United Church of Christ (UCC), the Universal Fellowship of Metropolitan Community Churches, etc.
WE’RE *all* out to GET YOU (giggle)!
Sticking your head in the intellectual sand does two things:
1. It makes you blind
2. It makes your ARSE *extremely* vulnerable
Hell, we can’t agree on what color to paint the LGBTQ Center, much less on what to CALL it (chuckle).
And WE’RE supposed to be plotting to take over the WORLD?
Have to fit THAT in between my power nap and my pedicure.
Cheers,
Bud Burgoon-Clark
happily and LEGALLY married to my HUSBAND
in San Diego …
If *I’m* going to hell, so are a lot of hypocritical konstipated konservative kristianist kultist krazies (KKKKK for short) … Jesus didn’t think much of the religious establishment of HIS day, either.
A *little* off-topic:
EXPLAINING EPISCOPALIANS IN ONE SENTENCE
“I was brought up Church of England, like any good Tory; belief in a Supreme Being was optional.” (giggle)
Cheers,
B. Burgoon-Clark
“Uh, excuse me, but those two sentences don’t make sense in juxtaposition. Either atheists have the right to DEMAND that the dominant Christian culture be restrained, or they don’t.”
I’ll keep this simple for you Bud as you seem to confuse easily. I don’t feel the need to go around and tell Jewish, Hindu, or whatever faith (not even the Religion of Atheism) that they are wrong, ignorant or stupid. I do not expect or accept those telling me that my faith is incorrect.