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	<title>Comments on: Besen:Rick Warren’s carnival of confession</title>
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		<title>By: Gabriela Conway</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-29753</link>
		<dc:creator>Gabriela Conway</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 13 Nov 2008 04:06:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-29753</guid>
		<description>syg1apxnspp3m5xk</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>syg1apxnspp3m5xk</p>
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		<title>By: John</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11876</link>
		<dc:creator>John</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 10:02:38 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Not sure what media Besen watches but it&#039;s not the one I&#039;ve been watching! The one I see goes weak at the knees and giggles like a school girls at the prospect of Obama making his next miracle. Don&#039;t get me wrong, I don&#039;t like either candidate but to see some media conspiracy that lauds McCain is just reality-denial! Get a grip!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure what media Besen watches but it&#8217;s not the one I&#8217;ve been watching! The one I see goes weak at the knees and giggles like a school girls at the prospect of Obama making his next miracle. Don&#8217;t get me wrong, I don&#8217;t like either candidate but to see some media conspiracy that lauds McCain is just reality-denial! Get a grip!</p>
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		<title>By: Bud Evans</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11832</link>
		<dc:creator>Bud Evans</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:36:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11832</guid>
		<description>Gerry Fisher wrote:
…“When you can see evidence of courage, clarity of vision, and the person being a genuinely GOOD HUMAN BEING, it’s worth taking that risk. ...Deval Patrick (current Govenor of Mass.) made a remark that was reported in the newspaper about the then recent MA Supreme Court decision in favor of gay marriage. He said something along the lines of, “I think the MA Supreme Court got it right.” At this time, he was the *only* candidate or major politician who took a strong, supportive stand on a controversial issue, and he took a lot of heat for it (a good amount of heat from African American church leaders…Deval is African American). &quot;…
…&quot;Well, the rest is history, Patrick was key in fighting off the effort to take away marriage rights, and Patrick is now beloved by gay people in MA.&quot;…
…&quot;Like Patrick, Obama stuck his neck out by speaking up against the Iraq war in 2002/2003, at a time when that opinion was considered to be so politically poisonous…”

---------------------------------------------------

Bud Evans responds:
Sorry Gerry, Obama is no Deval Patrick (even though Obama did “borrow” some of his speeches). I see no courage of conviction in this political chameleon, Barack Obama. He did not vote against going to war in Iraq because he was NOT in the US Senate at the time. I tire of hearing that ridiculous distortion incessantly. 

For example, I did not vote for that other Republican war-monger Richard Nixon. Does that mean I had the wisdom of forethought? Or could it be that it was because I was underage at the time. Hmmmm...Obama not in US Senate (plus) doesn&#039;t even have a say in voting to authorize Iraqi war (equals)…uh…courage?  Later, he jumps on the bandwagon, as national public opinion turns against the war. This brave stance is at last taken beyond the walls of the liberal Illinois state senate where he once resides-- of course, again, when there is no political risk -- as Obama runs for national office. 

Contrary wise, another (a genuinely brave Black man with true convictions), Deval Patrick, stands up, at great political risk in his own state, IN FAVOR of an unpopular Mass. Supreme Court marriage equality ruling for same-sex couples, then  runs for the highest executive office in that state, with no apologies or equivocations, to replace that plastic face homophobe Romney.  That is an actual profile in courage.
 
Obama stabbed his GLBT supporters in back at that hateful &quot;Faith Forum&quot; by joining the lynch-mob in denouncing our equality and then &quot;bravely&quot; offering us a place at the back of the bus.  Sorry, this guys is a dangerous phony -- just like Bill Clinton.  Make the Dems work for our vote, just like they do for every other constituency, otherwise take the word &quot;Pride&quot; out of &quot;Gay Pride&quot; and replace it with a new label -- Gay Uncle Tom.  

You have your rights in Massachusetts, how about giving some of  your  support to the rest of us who are still struggling for rights in our own region of the country. Federal recognition is the only way to achieve that. Obama will not fight for us -- if we do not demand it. Don&#039;t give him a free ride. Make him earn our vote. If he doesn&#039;t think the marriages of tens of thousands of same-sex couples, including mine, (my spouse and I were married in Canada four years ago) are &quot;sacred&quot; enough for him to be considered valid in the eyes of whatever superstitious concoction (as if it needs to be) that he politically leeches off from, then he deserves neither our loyalty nor our votes. The Dems are terrified when the Blacks stay home or the Hispanics or the Jews or any other minority because they know that they really must to earn their votes. Why are we such wimps and pushovers? 

Obama is not the great messiah. He is careful and calculating in every nuance of his nebulously optimistic and pedantic orations. Many in the GLBT community picked him as their champion because they thought a Black man, a formerly oppressed minority member, would be more sympathetic to our causes. Guess what, homophobia is as toxic, if not more, in the minority communities. Formerly oppressed minorities (with the exception of most Jews due to their higher levels of education) often embrace a hatred of GLBT Americans, with relish,  in order to feel better about their own misguided sense of inferiority -- just like the way White trash treated Blacks in the South in the last century.

It breaks my heart to see someone like Obama, who should know better, acting like one of those who just can’t quite embrace the notion that homosexuals are just as good as anyone else, and not some weird fringe group that has to be distantly tolerated and put in its place from time to time. So just remember the next time you vote: When you pick the lesser of two evil, you still choose evil. Aren&#039;t we better than that?  

~ Bud Evans</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Gerry Fisher wrote:<br />
…“When you can see evidence of courage, clarity of vision, and the person being a genuinely GOOD HUMAN BEING, it’s worth taking that risk. &#8230;Deval Patrick (current Govenor of Mass.) made a remark that was reported in the newspaper about the then recent MA Supreme Court decision in favor of gay marriage. He said something along the lines of, “I think the MA Supreme Court got it right.” At this time, he was the *only* candidate or major politician who took a strong, supportive stand on a controversial issue, and he took a lot of heat for it (a good amount of heat from African American church leaders…Deval is African American). &#8220;…<br />
…&#8221;Well, the rest is history, Patrick was key in fighting off the effort to take away marriage rights, and Patrick is now beloved by gay people in MA.&#8221;…<br />
…&#8221;Like Patrick, Obama stuck his neck out by speaking up against the Iraq war in 2002/2003, at a time when that opinion was considered to be so politically poisonous…”</p>
<p>&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;&#8212;</p>
<p>Bud Evans responds:<br />
Sorry Gerry, Obama is no Deval Patrick (even though Obama did “borrow” some of his speeches). I see no courage of conviction in this political chameleon, Barack Obama. He did not vote against going to war in Iraq because he was NOT in the US Senate at the time. I tire of hearing that ridiculous distortion incessantly. </p>
<p>For example, I did not vote for that other Republican war-monger Richard Nixon. Does that mean I had the wisdom of forethought? Or could it be that it was because I was underage at the time. Hmmmm&#8230;Obama not in US Senate (plus) doesn&#8217;t even have a say in voting to authorize Iraqi war (equals)…uh…courage?  Later, he jumps on the bandwagon, as national public opinion turns against the war. This brave stance is at last taken beyond the walls of the liberal Illinois state senate where he once resides&#8211; of course, again, when there is no political risk &#8212; as Obama runs for national office. </p>
<p>Contrary wise, another (a genuinely brave Black man with true convictions), Deval Patrick, stands up, at great political risk in his own state, IN FAVOR of an unpopular Mass. Supreme Court marriage equality ruling for same-sex couples, then  runs for the highest executive office in that state, with no apologies or equivocations, to replace that plastic face homophobe Romney.  That is an actual profile in courage.</p>
<p>Obama stabbed his GLBT supporters in back at that hateful &#8220;Faith Forum&#8221; by joining the lynch-mob in denouncing our equality and then &#8220;bravely&#8221; offering us a place at the back of the bus.  Sorry, this guys is a dangerous phony &#8212; just like Bill Clinton.  Make the Dems work for our vote, just like they do for every other constituency, otherwise take the word &#8220;Pride&#8221; out of &#8220;Gay Pride&#8221; and replace it with a new label &#8212; Gay Uncle Tom.  </p>
<p>You have your rights in Massachusetts, how about giving some of  your  support to the rest of us who are still struggling for rights in our own region of the country. Federal recognition is the only way to achieve that. Obama will not fight for us &#8212; if we do not demand it. Don&#8217;t give him a free ride. Make him earn our vote. If he doesn&#8217;t think the marriages of tens of thousands of same-sex couples, including mine, (my spouse and I were married in Canada four years ago) are &#8220;sacred&#8221; enough for him to be considered valid in the eyes of whatever superstitious concoction (as if it needs to be) that he politically leeches off from, then he deserves neither our loyalty nor our votes. The Dems are terrified when the Blacks stay home or the Hispanics or the Jews or any other minority because they know that they really must to earn their votes. Why are we such wimps and pushovers? </p>
<p>Obama is not the great messiah. He is careful and calculating in every nuance of his nebulously optimistic and pedantic orations. Many in the GLBT community picked him as their champion because they thought a Black man, a formerly oppressed minority member, would be more sympathetic to our causes. Guess what, homophobia is as toxic, if not more, in the minority communities. Formerly oppressed minorities (with the exception of most Jews due to their higher levels of education) often embrace a hatred of GLBT Americans, with relish,  in order to feel better about their own misguided sense of inferiority &#8212; just like the way White trash treated Blacks in the South in the last century.</p>
<p>It breaks my heart to see someone like Obama, who should know better, acting like one of those who just can’t quite embrace the notion that homosexuals are just as good as anyone else, and not some weird fringe group that has to be distantly tolerated and put in its place from time to time. So just remember the next time you vote: When you pick the lesser of two evil, you still choose evil. Aren&#8217;t we better than that?  </p>
<p>~ Bud Evans</p>
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		<title>By: Ross</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11824</link>
		<dc:creator>Ross</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 06:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11824</guid>
		<description>As a former history student, I can&#039;t say I&#039;m surprised by this. An empire begins to sink, people turn to religion. Look at Rome. 2nd century goes bad, the people move to christianity which teaches, &quot;life might suck, but if you&#039;re in with god, then the afterlife will rock!&quot; They get 1 last decent century (due to competent leaders) then the 4th rolls in and because there&#039;s a bunch of buffoons in charge, it all falls apart. Apply this to post-cold war America. &quot;Yay! we beat the commies!&quot; Now the world is adopting our model, and for most of the world it&#039;s working, more people world-wide are leaving poverty and entering the middle class than at any other time in history. But back in the US things aren&#039;t going as good, those raised countries are demanding better pay for their goods. Other countries don&#039;t need US aid like they did so they&#039;re now able to distance themselves since they aren&#039;t suckling at our teats. Instead of embracing these nations as partners, we treat them as rivals and think we can still control them. But the children have grown up and are now adults who don&#039;t necessarily need the old timers anymore. As I see it the US has too options. Elect Obama, and see America come to a respected position amoungst equal nations. Or elect McCain, and watch as we continue to belittle and (attempt to) intimidate others, only to see at some point the world in one voice say F-U and move past us, and the US will become completely impotent. Once again I&#039;m ranting... I&#039;ll stop now.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a former history student, I can&#8217;t say I&#8217;m surprised by this. An empire begins to sink, people turn to religion. Look at Rome. 2nd century goes bad, the people move to christianity which teaches, &#8220;life might suck, but if you&#8217;re in with god, then the afterlife will rock!&#8221; They get 1 last decent century (due to competent leaders) then the 4th rolls in and because there&#8217;s a bunch of buffoons in charge, it all falls apart. Apply this to post-cold war America. &#8220;Yay! we beat the commies!&#8221; Now the world is adopting our model, and for most of the world it&#8217;s working, more people world-wide are leaving poverty and entering the middle class than at any other time in history. But back in the US things aren&#8217;t going as good, those raised countries are demanding better pay for their goods. Other countries don&#8217;t need US aid like they did so they&#8217;re now able to distance themselves since they aren&#8217;t suckling at our teats. Instead of embracing these nations as partners, we treat them as rivals and think we can still control them. But the children have grown up and are now adults who don&#8217;t necessarily need the old timers anymore. As I see it the US has too options. Elect Obama, and see America come to a respected position amoungst equal nations. Or elect McCain, and watch as we continue to belittle and (attempt to) intimidate others, only to see at some point the world in one voice say F-U and move past us, and the US will become completely impotent. Once again I&#8217;m ranting&#8230; I&#8217;ll stop now.</p>
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		<title>By: Tammy</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11823</link>
		<dc:creator>Tammy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 05:59:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11823</guid>
		<description>Corvidae, I&#039;ve already moved to England because of US politics.  I married my British partner in Canada over 4 years ago, but because we&#039;re a same sex couple, the US government won&#039;t recognise it for immigration purposes.  The damage that the religious right has done to the US is indescribeable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Corvidae, I&#8217;ve already moved to England because of US politics.  I married my British partner in Canada over 4 years ago, but because we&#8217;re a same sex couple, the US government won&#8217;t recognise it for immigration purposes.  The damage that the religious right has done to the US is indescribeable.</p>
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		<title>By: Corvidae</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11815</link>
		<dc:creator>Corvidae</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Aug 2008 05:03:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11815</guid>
		<description>Seriously, if McCain gets voted in, come to England, we&#039;d love to have you here, I think it&#039;s a shame Americas politicians use gay rights as a voting issue, this shouldn&#039;t be allowed.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seriously, if McCain gets voted in, come to England, we&#8217;d love to have you here, I think it&#8217;s a shame Americas politicians use gay rights as a voting issue, this shouldn&#8217;t be allowed.</p>
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		<title>By: Trace</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11730</link>
		<dc:creator>Trace</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 23:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11730</guid>
		<description>Religions always do better when people are big enough to have faith in a higher power than their own personal egos.  

And personally, I see no reason why I need to pay any more taxes than the obscene amount that we already have to pay.  I see not need to have a nanny state and I have no desire to give money that I work for towards able body individuals that do not intend or want to work.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religions always do better when people are big enough to have faith in a higher power than their own personal egos.  </p>
<p>And personally, I see no reason why I need to pay any more taxes than the obscene amount that we already have to pay.  I see not need to have a nanny state and I have no desire to give money that I work for towards able body individuals that do not intend or want to work.</p>
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		<title>By: johnson</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11704</link>
		<dc:creator>johnson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 21:43:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11704</guid>
		<description>Religions always do better when people are frightened and poor.  As for the LCR&#039;s, they are nothing but gay Men(never have heard of many lesbians in that organization) who are wealthy (much of it inherited, btw) and want to pay less taxes--that above anything else is their main priority.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Religions always do better when people are frightened and poor.  As for the LCR&#8217;s, they are nothing but gay Men(never have heard of many lesbians in that organization) who are wealthy (much of it inherited, btw) and want to pay less taxes&#8211;that above anything else is their main priority.</p>
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		<title>By: Gerry Fisher</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11648</link>
		<dc:creator>Gerry Fisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:52:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11648</guid>
		<description>With more than a year to go before we elected our current governor here in Massachusetts, Deval Patrick, a candidate with no experience as an elected official (only a stint in the Justice Department in the Clinton administration) made a remark that was reported in the newspaper about the then recent MA Supreme Court decision in favor of gay marriage. He said something along the lines of, &quot;I think the MA Supreme Court got it right.&quot; At this time, he was the *only* candidate or major politician who took a strong, supportive stand on a controversial issue, and he took a lot of heat for it (a good amount of heat from African American church leaders...Deval is African American). Well, the rest is history, Patrick was key in fighting off the effort to take away marriage rights, and Patrick is now beloved by gay people in MA.

Obama and Patrick are friends, have very similar philosophies, and share a dynamic oratory style. Like Patrick, Obama stuck his neck out by speaking up against the Iraq war in 2002/2003, at a time when that opinion was considered to be so politically poisonous, that good friends like Kerry and H. Clinton felt that opposing the war would torpedo their careers (they chose &quot;career preservation&quot; over &quot;doing the right thing at a crucial moment in our country&#039;s history&quot;).

Patrick is not perfect, and his legacy as governor is far from secure (he&#039;s got a lot of improving he needs to do). But, here in MA, we took a chance on a &quot;promising&quot; and charismatic candidate, who had a &quot;thin&quot; resume, but who exhibited character on a controversial issue. I should also add that all conservatives and moderates feared Patrick would have to raise income or sales taxes to pay for all the programs he proposed; to date, he was NOT raised income (or sales) taxes. He&#039;s aggressively pursuing increasing revenue through biotech and casino revenue.

I guess I&#039;m saying 1)Yes, there is risk in voting for someone with a thin resume, but 2) When you can see evidence of courage, clarity of vision, and the person being a genuinely GOOD HUMAN BEING, it&#039;s worth taking that risk, I think. I think it&#039;s worth taking a chance on Obama. And I&#039;m willing to wait on federal support of gay marriage. His stance on the Iraq war is what showed his character, IMO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>With more than a year to go before we elected our current governor here in Massachusetts, Deval Patrick, a candidate with no experience as an elected official (only a stint in the Justice Department in the Clinton administration) made a remark that was reported in the newspaper about the then recent MA Supreme Court decision in favor of gay marriage. He said something along the lines of, &#8220;I think the MA Supreme Court got it right.&#8221; At this time, he was the *only* candidate or major politician who took a strong, supportive stand on a controversial issue, and he took a lot of heat for it (a good amount of heat from African American church leaders&#8230;Deval is African American). Well, the rest is history, Patrick was key in fighting off the effort to take away marriage rights, and Patrick is now beloved by gay people in MA.</p>
<p>Obama and Patrick are friends, have very similar philosophies, and share a dynamic oratory style. Like Patrick, Obama stuck his neck out by speaking up against the Iraq war in 2002/2003, at a time when that opinion was considered to be so politically poisonous, that good friends like Kerry and H. Clinton felt that opposing the war would torpedo their careers (they chose &#8220;career preservation&#8221; over &#8220;doing the right thing at a crucial moment in our country&#8217;s history&#8221;).</p>
<p>Patrick is not perfect, and his legacy as governor is far from secure (he&#8217;s got a lot of improving he needs to do). But, here in MA, we took a chance on a &#8220;promising&#8221; and charismatic candidate, who had a &#8220;thin&#8221; resume, but who exhibited character on a controversial issue. I should also add that all conservatives and moderates feared Patrick would have to raise income or sales taxes to pay for all the programs he proposed; to date, he was NOT raised income (or sales) taxes. He&#8217;s aggressively pursuing increasing revenue through biotech and casino revenue.</p>
<p>I guess I&#8217;m saying 1)Yes, there is risk in voting for someone with a thin resume, but 2) When you can see evidence of courage, clarity of vision, and the person being a genuinely GOOD HUMAN BEING, it&#8217;s worth taking that risk, I think. I think it&#8217;s worth taking a chance on Obama. And I&#8217;m willing to wait on federal support of gay marriage. His stance on the Iraq war is what showed his character, IMO.</p>
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		<title>By: CHris Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/living/besen-rick-warren-gay/comment-page-3/#comment-11638</link>
		<dc:creator>CHris Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 17:32:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=2707#comment-11638</guid>
		<description>God, I wish &quot;Gay Republicans&quot; would do the LGBT community a major favor and GO BACK IN THE CLOSET! - at least your rationalized self-loathing would be understandable then.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>God, I wish &#8220;Gay Republicans&#8221; would do the LGBT community a major favor and GO BACK IN THE CLOSET! &#8211; at least your rationalized self-loathing would be understandable then.</p>
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