Comments on: Backlash: How the LGBT struck back after Prop 8 http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/ The daily news source for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community Sun, 22 Nov 2009 08:48:18 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.6 hourly 1 By: Rick In Maine http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-2/#comment-34854 Rick In Maine Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:06:30 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-34854 With all due respect Tank, what matters the most is how the American people vote. It seems that the poles are once again inaccurate. Just ask anyone in California. With all due respect Tank, what matters the most is how the American people vote. It seems that the poles are once again inaccurate. Just ask anyone in California.

]]> By: Rick Morgan http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-34853 Rick Morgan Thu, 11 Dec 2008 21:03:25 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-34853 Tank I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am simply stating an opinion. Regarding your comment; "the burden isn’t on US to convince THEM that we’re okay. That’s offensive". That is one way of looking at what I said, again this is all about perception.If you perceive bring awarness about homosexuality offensive, you are entitled to that opinion. My point was not to convince 'them' of anything, but that actions speak so much louder than words, and let us not forget, as we each struggled with our own acceptance, it is no different for others. We had the advantage of knowing what it is like to have the feelings, they can only intellectualize what that is like. It was not about "convincing" anyone about anything, from my experience, a lot people who do not support "gay rights", do not understand homosexuality. My point is, being who I am and allowing those people to get to know me as a person, has changed their perception about homosexuality. Regarding your other comment: "You can’t convince someone who already has an answer that is supported by dogmatic faith. That has meaning, and it’s unquestioned belief. It’s a waste of time, and just sidetracks us from the goal." You may be right generally, however I have changed the perception of some who fit that criteria, not by demanding anything, or reacting, but by being, and responding with simple facts. Again it is not my business what someone thinks, until their thoughts trump my constitutional rights. My question for you Tank is; What is "the goal"? If it is to fight for "gay rights" I would argue that we HAVE been side tracked, from what we are guaranteed in the constitution, and it is not "gay rights", but the right to "the pursuit of happiness" . Tank we can make this about who is right who is wrong, us verse them, or fight for the laws that exist and are protected in the document known as the US Constitution. They may not protect not just gay people, but all Americans. We can make this just about gays, but we only have a minority fighting for that battle, or we can call it what it is, and assault on the American way of life, liberty, and freedom for all. This engages ALL Americans, because then it jeopardizes their rights and freedoms too. Tank I am not trying to convince anyone of anything. I am simply stating an opinion. Regarding your comment;
“the burden isn’t on US to convince THEM that we’re okay. That’s offensive”.
That is one way of looking at what I said, again this is all about perception.If you perceive bring awarness about homosexuality offensive, you are entitled to that opinion.
My point was not to convince ‘them’ of anything, but that actions speak so much louder than words, and let us not forget, as we each struggled with our own acceptance, it is no different for others. We had the advantage of knowing what it is like to have the feelings, they can only intellectualize what that is like. It was not about “convincing” anyone about anything, from my experience, a lot people who do not support “gay rights”, do not understand homosexuality. My point is, being who I am and allowing those people to get to know me as a person, has changed their perception about homosexuality.
Regarding your other comment:
“You can’t convince someone who already has an answer that is supported by dogmatic faith. That has meaning, and it’s unquestioned belief. It’s a waste of time, and just sidetracks us from the goal.”
You may be right generally, however I have changed the perception of some who fit that criteria, not by demanding anything, or reacting, but by being, and responding with simple facts. Again it is not my business what someone thinks, until their thoughts trump my constitutional rights.
My question for you Tank is;
What is “the goal”? If it is to fight for “gay rights” I would argue that we HAVE been side tracked, from what we are guaranteed in the constitution, and it is not “gay rights”, but the right to “the pursuit of happiness” .
Tank we can make this about who is right who is wrong, us verse them, or fight for the laws that exist and are protected in the document known as the US Constitution. They may not protect not just gay people, but all Americans. We can make this just about gays, but we only have a minority fighting for that battle, or we can call it what it is, and assault on the American way of life, liberty, and freedom for all. This engages ALL Americans, because then it jeopardizes their rights and freedoms too.

]]> By: TANK http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-34845 TANK Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:33:50 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-34845 It's going to take less effort to take away the negative associations of "gay marriage" than it would to rebrand the name of the debate. Polling data suggests that gay or same sex marriage is less and less controversial and is gaining more support with each successive year. It’s going to take less effort to take away the negative associations of “gay marriage” than it would to rebrand the name of the debate. Polling data suggests that gay or same sex marriage is less and less controversial and is gaining more support with each successive year.

]]> By: RickinMaine http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-34843 RickinMaine Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:19:38 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-34843 OZZY, May I first say for what it is worth, you are not alone, as you so artfully stated, their are 18000 of you. I can only imagine what that is like to have a celebration with those closest to you sharing it, and then to have it taken away. We are not able to marry here in Maine, but there is some domestic partner benefit here in the state. I have thought long and hard and gone up and down the emotional roller coaster with this issue. The fact is it is not fair, but more importantly, I believe it is not legal. I recommend that you get a pocket size copy of the US Constitution, read it. The 14th Amendment is particularly informative. What reading the constitution has done for me is not only help to educate me but, refocus. I no longer see this battle as "gay rights", but as constitutional right, guaranteed to every American citizen. I have found that when I talk to people about the constitutional, and that it states every one has the "God given right to freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness" AND that it is guaranteed, I see people responding very differently to the issue. I think the issue of "gay rights" creates conflict in the hearts and minds of many, however, start talking about something patriotic that is being endangered, like the guaranteed rights of Americans, and how a precedent of denying one group the rights that are granted to others, and now you have a whole different conversation. More Americans can get behind the Constitution than can get behind "gay rights". It is all about marketing, something I have experience in. I have been trying to convince our community "activist" that this approach will have more substance to it for more Americans than the "gay rights and the "gay marriage" conversation. I believe you especially will have the added benefit of having been married to argue the point. Now it is not just about not letting you get married, it is about letting you and taking it away. God Bless you and yours, Rick In Maine OZZY,
May I first say for what it is worth, you are not alone, as you so artfully stated, their are 18000 of you. I can only imagine what that is like to have a celebration with those closest to you sharing it, and then to have it taken away. We are not able to marry here in Maine, but there is some domestic partner benefit here in the state.
I have thought long and hard and gone up and down the emotional roller coaster with this issue. The fact is it is not fair, but more importantly, I believe it is not legal. I recommend that you get a pocket size copy of the US Constitution, read it. The 14th Amendment is particularly informative. What reading the constitution has done for me is not only help to educate me but, refocus. I no longer see this battle as “gay rights”, but as constitutional right, guaranteed to every American citizen. I have found that when I talk to people about the constitutional, and that it states every one has the “God given right to freedom, liberty and the pursuit of happiness” AND that it is guaranteed, I see people responding very differently to the issue. I think the issue of “gay rights” creates conflict in the hearts and minds of many, however, start talking about something patriotic that is being endangered, like the guaranteed rights of Americans, and how a precedent of denying one group the rights that are granted to others, and now you have a whole different conversation. More Americans can get behind the Constitution than can get behind “gay rights”.
It is all about marketing, something I have experience in. I have been trying to convince our community “activist” that this approach will have more substance to it for more Americans than the “gay rights and the “gay marriage” conversation. I believe you especially will have the added benefit of having been married to argue the point. Now it is not just about not letting you get married, it is about letting you and taking it away.
God Bless you and yours,
Rick In Maine

]]> By: TANK http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-34841 TANK Thu, 11 Dec 2008 20:13:52 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-34841 There's no convincing them as there's no common ground upon which to do it. You can't convince someone who already has an answer that is supported by dogmatic faith. That has meaning, and it's unquestioned belief. It's a waste of time, and just sidetracks us from the goal. And besides, the burden isn't on US to convince THEM that we're okay. That's offensive. THere are no purely evil people and purely good people. Even Hitler had his moments of doing the right thing... There are people out there who think they're good because they follow religious tenets, etc. That their good deeds in the case of religion happen to be good is coincidental if they'd not do what they did in the absence of those religious beliefs COMPELLING them to act not out of recognizing that it's the right thing to do, but as a religious command with the incentive of punishments visited upon THEM if they don't. I'm not saying that all mormons are bad people, but to explain why some are good people has nothing to do with their mormon faith. There’s no convincing them as there’s no common ground upon which to do it. You can’t convince someone who already has an answer that is supported by dogmatic faith. That has meaning, and it’s unquestioned belief. It’s a waste of time, and just sidetracks us from the goal. And besides, the burden isn’t on US to convince THEM that we’re okay. That’s offensive.

THere are no purely evil people and purely good people. Even Hitler had his moments of doing the right thing… There are people out there who think they’re good because they follow religious tenets, etc. That their good deeds in the case of religion happen to be good is coincidental if they’d not do what they did in the absence of those religious beliefs COMPELLING them to act not out of recognizing that it’s the right thing to do, but as a religious command with the incentive of punishments visited upon THEM if they don’t.

I’m not saying that all mormons are bad people, but to explain why some are good people has nothing to do with their mormon faith.

]]> By: RickinMaine http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-34838 RickinMaine Thu, 11 Dec 2008 19:48:27 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-34838 Jennifer I have to say in fairness to Mormons they are a generous christian group that tithes 10 percent of their incomes to support poor families in their congregation. I saw first hand what they did for a friend when she was with out money because she left an abusive husband. The church dropped off groceries very week, at Christmas they brought her a tree and some presents for her son. I think we need to rise above the fray here folks. To try and convince mormons, right wing Christians, or any other religious group that believes homosexuality is a sin, that we are not bad, is just not going to accomplish anything. The on going religious argument can never be won, it always comes back to "God Says We Are Bad, evil, sinners, and an abomination" ...the bible tells me so. Now if you can get some more open minded people to see the movie of the same title; ( The Bible Tells Me So) you might create an opening with them. However the less independent thinkers are just never going to get it. They are vested in us being evil. My approach has been to not try and ram anything down anyone's throat, (figuratively speaking)...but to be myself, behave in the manner of a respectable and responsible citizen. I happen to spend several months in Salt Lake City on business years ago. Two of my business partners were born and raised Mormons. They had been raised to believe I was the devil. See, they believe that procreation is Gods will to bring souls to physical bodies. Homosexuals can't do that so we must be from the devil. After several months working with these people, they had to re think their churches position. One of them actually told me that knowing me had made her have to rethink everything she had been taught about Homosexuals. This was a very tough situation, she loved her church. Those people ended up moving with our company to San Francisco and we had well over 30% of our companies employees who were gay. She had affection for everyone in our company. I have changed a lot of peoples perceptions of homosexuality with just being myself, stating my position, clearly and simply. Educating those who can be and letting those who can not be, think what they want to think. Actually, it is none of my business what someone thinks about me, they are entitle to their beliefs just as I am mine. I just need to let them know, their beliefs do not trump my rights as an American citizen. I take the stand that the issue of "gay rights" is really about the guaranteed rights of every American in the US Constitution, "the right to the pursuit of happiness" and that applies to every American, and to deny any rights guaranteed in the constitution affects EVERY American. I understand the desire to want to storm in and make a statement, but all that really does is feed the perception that is promoted by the far right, that we are, self focused to the point of disrespectful, unruly, and dangerous. To behave in such a way supports those perceptions. Make it about what this country stands for, liberty and freedom for all, that no individual should be able to vote on the rights of another individual, and then you may gain support by the patriotic Americans that put our countries principle before personalities. I am a patriotic American first, I also happen to be homosexual. Rick Jennifer I have to say in fairness to Mormons they are a generous christian group that tithes 10 percent of their incomes to support poor families in their congregation. I saw first hand what they did for a friend when she was with out money because she left an abusive husband. The church dropped off groceries very week, at Christmas they brought her a tree and some presents for her son.
I think we need to rise above the fray here folks. To try and convince mormons, right wing Christians, or any other religious group that believes homosexuality is a sin, that we are not bad, is just not going to accomplish anything. The on going religious argument can never be won, it always comes back to “God Says We Are Bad, evil, sinners, and an abomination” …the bible tells me so. Now if you can get some more open minded people to see the movie of the same title; ( The Bible Tells Me So) you might create an opening with them. However the less independent thinkers are just never going to get it. They are vested in us being evil.
My approach has been to not try and ram anything down anyone’s throat, (figuratively speaking)…but to be myself, behave in the manner of a respectable and responsible citizen.
I happen to spend several months in Salt Lake City on business years ago. Two of my business partners were born and raised Mormons. They had been raised to believe I was the devil. See, they believe that procreation is Gods will to bring souls to physical bodies. Homosexuals can’t do that so we must be from the devil. After several months working with these people, they had to re think their churches position. One of them actually told me that knowing me had made her have to rethink everything she had been taught about Homosexuals. This was a very tough situation, she loved her church. Those people ended up moving with our company to San Francisco and we had well over 30% of our companies employees who were gay. She had affection for everyone in our company.
I have changed a lot of peoples perceptions of homosexuality with just being myself, stating my position, clearly and simply. Educating those who can be and letting those who can not be, think what they want to think. Actually, it is none of my business what someone thinks about me, they are entitle to their beliefs just as I am mine. I just need to let them know, their beliefs do not trump my rights as an American citizen.
I take the stand that the issue of “gay rights” is really about the guaranteed rights of every American in the US Constitution, “the right to the pursuit of happiness” and that applies to every American, and to deny any rights guaranteed in the constitution affects EVERY American.
I understand the desire to want to storm in and make a statement, but all that really does is feed the perception that is promoted by the far right, that we are, self focused to the point of disrespectful, unruly, and dangerous. To behave in such a way supports those perceptions.
Make it about what this country stands for, liberty and freedom for all, that no individual should be able to vote on the rights of another individual, and then you may gain support by the patriotic Americans that put our countries principle before personalities.
I am a patriotic American first, I also happen to be homosexual.
Rick

]]> By: DeGuyz in Mississippi http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-32588 DeGuyz in Mississippi Wed, 26 Nov 2008 16:22:58 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-32588 I guess to attack the States that stand out the most against gay rights wowuld be suffing it in their faces. This state would not know how to act with hundreds of thousands of protesters on the coast. Someday soon they will be faced with that prospect. Lets hope they act accordingly. I still wouldn't spend a dime here. I would have to buy everything I need to get by from Louisiana The have some nice casino's there too. I guess to attack the States that stand out the most against gay rights wowuld be suffing it in their faces. This state would not know how to act with hundreds of thousands of protesters on the coast. Someday soon they will be faced with that prospect. Lets hope they act accordingly. I still wouldn’t spend a dime here. I would have to buy everything I need to get by from Louisiana The have some nice casino’s there too.

]]> By: Sean Martin http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-32558 Sean Martin Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:29:51 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-32558 Sometimes you have to express it in pictures... www.joey-aristophanes.com/af.jpg Sometimes you have to express it in pictures…

http://www.joey-aristophanes.com/af.jpg

]]> By: Doug loves you http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-32551 Doug loves you Wed, 26 Nov 2008 14:08:29 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-32551 I see y'all are still on the warpath against the gorgons{mormons duh?}. They are in my opinion about the lowest example of christians immaginable. Polygamy, choirs and homophobia are their trademarks. Thank God there really aren't too much interest in them as a religion{of hate and intolerance}. Where did all this involvement in national issues start for them? Why do they seem to feel in the 21st century that anything gay is so bad? I love the lawsuits and boycots being called for. I just wish they had done something personal to me so I could get a money settlement. I live on my ssi and could really use the bucks. Peace to you all and love is the key to happiness, Doug I see y’all are still on the warpath against the gorgons{mormons duh?}. They are in my opinion about the lowest example of christians immaginable. Polygamy, choirs and homophobia are their trademarks. Thank God there really aren’t too much interest in them as a religion{of hate and intolerance}. Where did all this involvement in national issues start for them? Why do they seem to feel in the 21st century that anything gay is so bad? I love the lawsuits and boycots being called for. I just wish they had done something personal to me so I could get a money settlement. I live on my ssi and could really use the bucks. Peace to you all and love is the key to happiness, Doug

]]> By: Morgan http://www.365gay.com/living/backlash-how-the-lgbt-struck-back-after-prop-8/comment-page-1/#comment-32514 Morgan Wed, 26 Nov 2008 04:00:30 +0000 http://www.365gay.com/?p=4351#comment-32514 Wayne, Sorry to disappoint you. The Mormons gave up polygamy a while back and polygamy is illegal anyway. Wayne, Sorry to disappoint you. The Mormons gave up polygamy a while back and polygamy is illegal anyway.

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