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	<title>Comments on: Ruby-Sachs: Left-leaning California judge votes against hearing Proposition 8 cases</title>
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	<description>The daily news source for the gay, lesbian, bisexual and transgender community</description>
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		<title>By: Cindy Tobisman</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31582</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Tobisman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:29:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31582</guid>
		<description>P.S. The initiative process in California is a complete disaster.  The voting public should not be legislating.  The voting public does not have a legislative analyst.  It doesn&#039;t have caucus recommendations re: the unintended consequences of a piece of legislation.  Basically, all propositions are just a shot in the dark.  I&#039;d like to see an initiative to end the initiative process.  (It&#039;ll never happen, but it would be good if it did.)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>P.S. The initiative process in California is a complete disaster.  The voting public should not be legislating.  The voting public does not have a legislative analyst.  It doesn&#8217;t have caucus recommendations re: the unintended consequences of a piece of legislation.  Basically, all propositions are just a shot in the dark.  I&#8217;d like to see an initiative to end the initiative process.  (It&#8217;ll never happen, but it would be good if it did.)</p>
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		<title>By: Cindy Tobisman</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31580</link>
		<dc:creator>Cindy Tobisman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 04:27:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31580</guid>
		<description>Another reason not to read too much into Kennard&#039;s statement is what she said when she concurred with the majority in May, recognizing same-sex couples&#039; fundamental right to marry.  In her concurrence, she described application of the equal protection clause as one of the gravest and most important of all judicial functions.  

These judges are, hopefully, more courageous than letting the threat of recall sway what they know to be the correct result:  The majority cannot be permitted to vote on minorities&#039; fundamental rights.  This isn&#039;t a &quot;gay&quot; issue.  This is an issue that affects ALL minorities.  If Prop. 8 is valid, what&#039;s next?  Prop. 9 is an amendment to prohibit immigrants from having access to social services.  Prop. 10 is an amendment to preclude women who have ever had a divorce from marrying, etc.  

This should be an easy case.  People can take issue with the Cal. Supremes&#039; initial decision to get involved - to decide that same-sex couples had the right to marry.  But that genie is already out of the bottle.  Now, the question is much more basic:  Can the majority strip rights from minorities.  The answer is easy:  NO.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Another reason not to read too much into Kennard&#8217;s statement is what she said when she concurred with the majority in May, recognizing same-sex couples&#8217; fundamental right to marry.  In her concurrence, she described application of the equal protection clause as one of the gravest and most important of all judicial functions.  </p>
<p>These judges are, hopefully, more courageous than letting the threat of recall sway what they know to be the correct result:  The majority cannot be permitted to vote on minorities&#8217; fundamental rights.  This isn&#8217;t a &#8220;gay&#8221; issue.  This is an issue that affects ALL minorities.  If Prop. 8 is valid, what&#8217;s next?  Prop. 9 is an amendment to prohibit immigrants from having access to social services.  Prop. 10 is an amendment to preclude women who have ever had a divorce from marrying, etc.  </p>
<p>This should be an easy case.  People can take issue with the Cal. Supremes&#8217; initial decision to get involved &#8211; to decide that same-sex couples had the right to marry.  But that genie is already out of the bottle.  Now, the question is much more basic:  Can the majority strip rights from minorities.  The answer is easy:  NO.</p>
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		<title>By: duane harrison</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31539</link>
		<dc:creator>duane harrison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 00:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31539</guid>
		<description>GAY MARRIAGE OR CIVIL UNIONS WITH FULL EQUAL RIGHTS THATS MY VOTE</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GAY MARRIAGE OR CIVIL UNIONS WITH FULL EQUAL RIGHTS THATS MY VOTE</p>
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		<title>By: Mercedes</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31531</link>
		<dc:creator>Mercedes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 23:46:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31531</guid>
		<description>Emma, I gotta go with Cindy Tobisman on this one. Not to mention that Kennard is now on record as having kicked prop 8 challenge to the trial curb. It is all good.

There is a time in all our lives when we are called upon to stand up for what is right. These justices are in such a position. It is better to pray that they have enough personal strength and to send them some positive vibes then it is to be negative about the outcome. 

You kind of remind me of my neighbors who said there was no way Obama could win because he was part AA. 

  Try imagining what is possible and believe it can happen...and it will.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Emma, I gotta go with Cindy Tobisman on this one. Not to mention that Kennard is now on record as having kicked prop 8 challenge to the trial curb. It is all good.</p>
<p>There is a time in all our lives when we are called upon to stand up for what is right. These justices are in such a position. It is better to pray that they have enough personal strength and to send them some positive vibes then it is to be negative about the outcome. </p>
<p>You kind of remind me of my neighbors who said there was no way Obama could win because he was part AA. </p>
<p>  Try imagining what is possible and believe it can happen&#8230;and it will.</p>
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		<title>By: Will</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31488</link>
		<dc:creator>Will</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 21:45:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31488</guid>
		<description>Order can be born from chaos.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Order can be born from chaos.</p>
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		<title>By: Debra</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31458</link>
		<dc:creator>Debra</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:42:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31458</guid>
		<description>&quot;Huge outrage will be directed at the courts, not just by conservatives, but by all citizens who would rather see law made in the legislature, and not in the courtroom.&quot;

But the CA legislature voted in favor of gay marriage.  There is a big difference between lawmaking by a deliberative legislative body, in which representatives are tasked to represent the greatest good for greatest number the people, and lawmaking by initiative, which could be termed &quot;mob rule&quot; or &quot;tyranny by the majority&quot;.  In Massachusetts, marriage equality was saved by a 4 year deliberative process in the legislature.  In fact, at the end, many of our legislators voted for marriage equality in order to prevent the kind of media free-for-all generated by a referendum.  Perhaps the excess reliance on initiatives in California is to blame for loss of marriage equality there.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Huge outrage will be directed at the courts, not just by conservatives, but by all citizens who would rather see law made in the legislature, and not in the courtroom.&#8221;</p>
<p>But the CA legislature voted in favor of gay marriage.  There is a big difference between lawmaking by a deliberative legislative body, in which representatives are tasked to represent the greatest good for greatest number the people, and lawmaking by initiative, which could be termed &#8220;mob rule&#8221; or &#8220;tyranny by the majority&#8221;.  In Massachusetts, marriage equality was saved by a 4 year deliberative process in the legislature.  In fact, at the end, many of our legislators voted for marriage equality in order to prevent the kind of media free-for-all generated by a referendum.  Perhaps the excess reliance on initiatives in California is to blame for loss of marriage equality there.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31442</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 19:17:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31442</guid>
		<description>This entire case shows the major weakness in the public referendum system.  We have allowed the only check against the tyranny of the majority to be how large the checks are written to either side.  Our elected officals balance one another out, gridlock forces compromise and discussion - granted not all of it is productive - but without that discussion you have knee jerk legislation and admendments that are not written but bought.  We all are paying that price now.  I hope that the justices of the CSC will realize their unique position as the only check avaiable to the people wronged and give this case the consideration and dicsussion it deserves.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This entire case shows the major weakness in the public referendum system.  We have allowed the only check against the tyranny of the majority to be how large the checks are written to either side.  Our elected officals balance one another out, gridlock forces compromise and discussion &#8211; granted not all of it is productive &#8211; but without that discussion you have knee jerk legislation and admendments that are not written but bought.  We all are paying that price now.  I hope that the justices of the CSC will realize their unique position as the only check avaiable to the people wronged and give this case the consideration and dicsussion it deserves.</p>
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		<title>By: Chris Sullivan</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31437</link>
		<dc:creator>Chris Sullivan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:59:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31437</guid>
		<description>Sorry Ruby, but I don&#039;t agree with you on this one. Actually, the court system is exactly where this kind of issue SHOULD be decided. Regardless of the emotions that some of the general public may feel, it is the duty of the state judiciary to uphold its constitution AND to be exceedingly careful when attempts are made to amend it. In this instance, the rites of a minority classification of people have been put up to a popular vote by the majority. Amending the state constitution to deny a whole classification of people a basic human rite should NOT be an option available solely through the legislative process (if at all). It very much IS the duty of the judiciary to protect a minority group of people from the overreaching of the majority, especially when it comes to enshrining less than equal status into their constitution.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry Ruby, but I don&#8217;t agree with you on this one. Actually, the court system is exactly where this kind of issue SHOULD be decided. Regardless of the emotions that some of the general public may feel, it is the duty of the state judiciary to uphold its constitution AND to be exceedingly careful when attempts are made to amend it. In this instance, the rites of a minority classification of people have been put up to a popular vote by the majority. Amending the state constitution to deny a whole classification of people a basic human rite should NOT be an option available solely through the legislative process (if at all). It very much IS the duty of the judiciary to protect a minority group of people from the overreaching of the majority, especially when it comes to enshrining less than equal status into their constitution.</p>
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		<title>By: Ken</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31434</link>
		<dc:creator>Ken</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:51:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31434</guid>
		<description>Proposition Hate basically comes down to this:

&quot;You cannot enter into a civil contract, like everyone else, because it has the same name as a ceremony in my church, for which you would be ineligible, if you were a member, which  you are not.&quot;

In other words, it doesn&#039;t make sense.

It not only violates the equal-protection clause of the California constitution, it also violates the equal-protection clause of the fourteenth amendment to the US constitution, which explicitly regulates the states&#039; laws. True, the judges on the California Supreme Court are not federal judges and cannot adjudicate federal laws, but as residents of the US, they can&#039;t violate them, either. That means they have to make a good faith effort to make a decision that is not illegal on the federal level.

If the judges fear the electorate, then they are not fit to be judges anyway.

All this proves is that the proposition process in California is not a tool of democracy, but of mob rule.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Proposition Hate basically comes down to this:</p>
<p>&#8220;You cannot enter into a civil contract, like everyone else, because it has the same name as a ceremony in my church, for which you would be ineligible, if you were a member, which  you are not.&#8221;</p>
<p>In other words, it doesn&#8217;t make sense.</p>
<p>It not only violates the equal-protection clause of the California constitution, it also violates the equal-protection clause of the fourteenth amendment to the US constitution, which explicitly regulates the states&#8217; laws. True, the judges on the California Supreme Court are not federal judges and cannot adjudicate federal laws, but as residents of the US, they can&#8217;t violate them, either. That means they have to make a good faith effort to make a decision that is not illegal on the federal level.</p>
<p>If the judges fear the electorate, then they are not fit to be judges anyway.</p>
<p>All this proves is that the proposition process in California is not a tool of democracy, but of mob rule.</p>
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		<title>By: Camden Cornell</title>
		<link>http://www.365gay.com/blog/ruby-sachs-left-leaning-california-judge-votes-against-hearing-proposition-8-cases/comment-page-1/#comment-31432</link>
		<dc:creator>Camden Cornell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:44:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.365gay.com/?p=4294#comment-31432</guid>
		<description>From the article:

&quot;Huge outrage will be directed at the courts, not just by conservatives, but by all citizens who would rather see law made in the legislature, and not in the courtroom.&quot;

Excuse me, but didn&#039;t the california legislature vote FOR gay marriage not ONCE but TWICE? And didn&#039;t AhHHHHNOLD veto it not ONCE but TWICE????

Seems to me that the legislature has done it&#039;s part already and been rebuffed. The COURT is the proper plce for this to be decided and their May 2008 ruling makes plain and clear that any attempt to pass a majority-rule proposition to eliminate equal rights for gays would be rejected - again.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the article:</p>
<p>&#8220;Huge outrage will be directed at the courts, not just by conservatives, but by all citizens who would rather see law made in the legislature, and not in the courtroom.&#8221;</p>
<p>Excuse me, but didn&#8217;t the california legislature vote FOR gay marriage not ONCE but TWICE? And didn&#8217;t AhHHHHNOLD veto it not ONCE but TWICE????</p>
<p>Seems to me that the legislature has done it&#8217;s part already and been rebuffed. The COURT is the proper plce for this to be decided and their May 2008 ruling makes plain and clear that any attempt to pass a majority-rule proposition to eliminate equal rights for gays would be rejected &#8211; again.</p>
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