Subscribe to Breaking NewsRuby-Sachs: Gender Testing and Sport
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/12/eudy-simelane-corrective-rape-south-africa
Many of you might remember the flurry of testing that happened before the Beijing olympics. Gender testing, age testing, drug testing, hit the news pretty much every day.
Well this time a South African athlete is subject to a media flurry about her gender identity after winning the 800 metre at the World Championships.
It’s not that gender in sport is irrelevant. Although I believe in gender neutrality in all things, I understand that those who take competitive sport seriously have science that explains exactly why men and women should not be forced to compete against each other. As a person who feels that the gender binary is only harmful, it would make more sense to me to have gender neutral world competitions allowing for the idea that a man, woman or person who wishes not to identify as either gender could be the world record holder in any one sport.
Still, understanding that I’m not going to change the way the entire world of sports operates, it still seems particularly cruel to judge those who might be more masculine in appearance more harshly. Is it not possible that a man with a particularly feminine build would slip by the judges unnoticed because he fit their stereotyped understanding of female? Shouldn’t testing be mandatory for all athletes rather than only subjecting those who look “different” to a public humiliation?
This is especially true for the South African runner in the news today. She comes from a country with rigid concepts of gender identity. It is a country where lesbians are brutally murdered, even in large urban centers, for simply being out. Her masculine appearance has, according to her father, always caused her great hardship and now her parents are forced to defend her “femaleness” to the world.
Well, I find it outrageous.
The international world of sport has dealt with intersexed people for its entire history and benefits from the talents of individuals who don’t fit into gender norms. They should be forced to lead the way in gender openness and inclusion, not target its own superstars for being different.
Sara Bellum Said: August 24th, 2009 at 8:11 am
@Francis:
I think one issue here is that you reference “sports” as if they are all the same. Even if everyone accedes that world-level men are performing differently than world-level women in some sports, it would also seem that others are affected far less if at all by sexual differences. Is Olympic ping-pong really the same as a track and field event?[
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But, of course, this is really beside the point. The point here is how do we respectfully deal with intergender people who have the same athletic ambitions as anyone else. Simply being intergender (which happens through a variety of means) gives no automatic advantage no matter what we decide the stereotypical differences between men and women are. It might be that we could agree that some conditions might, in fact, grant some advantage but shouldn’t the judging bodies be required to demonstrate that there was in fact an undue advantage, rather than just noting a physiological situation, and that this advantage was in some way greater than the genetic gifts the other competitors had?
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Whatever we do, it should protect the integrity of the women’s game. Ms Sachs dream of gender free athletics seriously endangers women’s participations in sport. All of the information we have about elite competition puts women at significant disadvantage to men. If we do the PC thing that Ms Sachs wants to do, and eliminate gender divisions in sport I am certain it would undo all the good that Title IX did. I was called a sexist for what I said, but I am the one who is trying to protect the women’s game and female participation in sport.
The most brilliant piece of reasoning I’ve found “proving” Semenya is actually a man is from Team Estrogen, where a woman posted the fact that “Caster Semenya” is an anagram of “Yes, a secret man.” Investigative reporting at its finest!
“Should a genetic male who grew up and appears to be an average female because she is testosterone insensitive get booted from competitions because she is genetically male as a simple example?”
The IOC’s reasoning would probably say that said people are female, bececause they are generally accepted as being female socially and do not have the androgen advantage.
Chromosomes don’t (or shouldn’t) play into the decision-making process.
“Should we test all female athletes to ensure that the levels of androgens produced by their bodies fall in the “normal” range whatever their genetics say about their sex?”
No, because I imagine a lot of world-class female athletes have above-average androgen levels anyway. This is speculation on my part, I haven’t looked at any data, but it makes sense in the context.
“Should we make all people who are in any way intergender compete in the male competitions?”
We should assesss their androgen levels, their body’s ability to respond to said androgens and their socially-recognized gender.
“Is it necessarily more of an advantage to be born intergender for an athlete on the women’s basketball team than to be born impossibly tall?”
Not my place to decide that.
“Isn’t at least some of all this just people’s discomfort with those who don’t neatly fit into gender/sex norms?”
Possibly. In this particular case I’m guessing it’s another runner was a sore loser and decided to raise issue over it because the winner doesn’t have a particularly feminine appearance.
@Francis:
I think one issue here is that you reference “sports” as if they are all the same. Even if everyone accedes that world-level men are performing differently than world-level women in some sports, it would also seem that others are affected far less if at all by sexual differences. Is Olympic ping-pong really the same as a track and field event? Are target shooting competitions really so primarily affected by sex that is must be the first criteria for sorting competitors? Personally, while many assume martial arts are about physical gifts, I believe such competitions are determined by skill level (at least in the point system, as happens in these amateur competitions, if not full contact).
So if we can agree that in some competitions sex matters and in others it doesn’t, the question arises why we separate competitors in those fields where it doesn’t matter.
But, of course, this is really beside the point. The point here is how do we respectfully deal with intergender people who have the same athletic ambitions as anyone else. Simply being intergender (which happens through a variety of means) gives no automatic advantage no matter what we decide the stereotypical differences between men and women are. It might be that we could agree that some conditions might, in fact, grant some advantage but shouldn’t the judging bodies be required to demonstrate that there was in fact an undue advantage, rather than just noting a physiological situation, and that this advantage was in some way greater than the genetic gifts the other competitors had?
@Kari:
I guess I should begin by assuring you I am familiar with human phsyiology.
When you say “substantially more” that is of course a relative statement like most of the physiological differences between men and women. Actually, I should extend that statement to explicitly say “all” differences because the real topic at hand here is intergender people. The focus question here is how we treat intergender people who come in all shapes and sizes. Should a genetic male who grew up and appears to be an average female because she is testosterone insensitive get booted from competitions because she is genetically male as a simple example? I call this a simple example because this person, who’s body cannot make use of testosterone, clearly gets no advantage from any amount of this hormone in her system, even if she injected more.
Should we test all female athletes to ensure that the levels of androgens produced by their bodies fall in the “normal” range whatever their genetics say about their sex?
When I referenced a lack of information indicating that trans-athletes had an advantage, I was indicating such conditions as you cite.
Should we make all people who are in any way intergender compete in the male competitions? Would that be universally fair? If being intergender really is an advantage, shouldn’t we test every competitor rather than just those who look non-conforming to others? Should every competitor’s wins be up for grabs pending a medical examination if some failed competitor decides they don’t like her looks? Are we just going to kick intergender people out of the women’s competitions or also out of the men’s? If intergender people can compete with the men, why can’t women also chose to do so if they wish? Even if this really puts them at a disadvantage at least some of the intergender people would be facing similar disadvantages.
The real problem here is that humans physically aren’t neatly divided into just men and women. Even if we don’t include transgender/transsexual people, many people are born intergender. Many of those people reach adulthood without even becoming aware that they are in some way intergender. More to the point, their physiology varies significantly from each other. It might be that we can all agree that one person has significantly higher levels of testosterone than average (as one example), that testosterone automatically results in an advantage, and that therefore some particular competitor has an advantage. But shouldn’t we also ask whether this advantage is significantly greater than the woman next to her who due to genetic gifts has an unusually low and stable resting heart rate (as has been noted in more than a few top world competitors) as just one example. Is it necessarily more of an advantage to be born intergender for an athlete on the women’s basketball team than to be born impossibly tall?
Which genetic gifts count as undue advantages and which don’t?
Isn’t at least some of all this just people’s discomfort with those who don’t neatly fit into gender/sex norms?
Sara Bellum + Leeanne Henry:
The issue is a matter of physiology. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid and people who have more of it in their systems will have an easier time building greater amounts of muscle mass.
Male bodies, on average, produce substantially more of it than female bodies. Such is reality.
If I remember right, the IOC’s policy on trans athletes is:
* If they do not transition, they are considered their birth sex.
* If they are in the midst of transitioning they cannot compete because of inability to fairly assess their current sex for the purpose of determining whether they have the male performance ‘advantage’.
* If they have completed transitioning they are regarded as the sex that they transitioned to.
Leeanne Henry Said: August 22nd, 2009 at 10:16 pm
Oh. RfrancisR. You think that no female could ever beat a male at anything it would seem.
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I never said that.
Here’s what I said specifically:
“But unless women make some giant evolutionary leap over men an elite woman will NEVER beat an elite man in sports.”
Am I an elite male athlete? No. In fact, it’s been years since I participated in athletics, and even when I did, there were plenty of women who were better than me. However, I never made the claim you said I made.
On the elite level, however, no woman in the history of 800M running could come close to qualifying for the IAAF World Championships in the men’s division. I understand that irrefutable fact is un-PC, but it is a fact.
That fact is why, in elite sports there are men’s and women’s divisions.
In fact, even in lower divisions there are men’s and women’s divisions. The reason? Because men consistently perform better than women. I used to run a lot of 5k and 10k races when I was younger. While individual women would finish ahead of men in those races: there was always one constant: the best male in those races always finished ahead of the best woman. That was the case in every 5k or 10k road race sponsored by the NOTC. Every single race.
If you don’t like sports stats, don’t talk about sports.
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Your logic is from the most sexist of places. If you truly think a female cannot do anything that a male can do
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I never said that a woman can’t do whatever a man can. But, at the elite level of sports, a female simply can’t compete with a male. That’s not sexist, that’s a proven fact.
Here let me give you an example of how silly you sound to someone who is knowledgeable about sports: if you don’t think a man can give birth to a baby then I feel sorry for your father!
Now, I have seen women in shooting contests in basketball beat men of their same level. But that’s a shooting contest where you stand still and shoot the ball. That’s not a game of basketball. I’ve seen female softball pitchers strike out major league baseball players. But they weren’t competing in the same sport — the baseball player plays on different dimensions, and baseballs that are pitched overhand do different things than softballs pitched underhand. Softball is a different game than baseball for these reasons. I am sure a woman sprinter could outs sprint Tiger Woods. But Tiger Woods is a golfer not a sprinter. But there isn’t a female sprinter in history who could out sprint an elite male sprinter.
In your way of thinking, since I have seen some 12 year olds finish ahead of some 20 year olds in races, we should eliminate age divisions in sport and let 12 year olds compete directly against elite 20 year olds if they ever want to call themselves winner of a race.
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We (collectively) are NO ONE to question anyone’s gender. Just like it’s not polite to ask someone about their genitals.
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Isn’t that sweet and so PC of you. But in the world of competitive sport, we absolutely have the right to assure that women are not being cheated by men who are pretending to be women. We have the same right to assure that men aren’t pretending to be women just as we have the right to assure that no one is using steroids.
Oh. RfrancisR. You think that no female could ever beat a male at anything it would seem. Why are you even commenting here what does this have to do with you? Go read sports stats… while the atheletes talk over here.
Better yet, I challenge you to any sport. Just me and you, or you and about 5 of your friends, at any sport you desire. I promise you, I will walk away the winner. I doubt if you would even score. Well, I know you wouldn’t score. Your logic is from the most sexist of places. If you truly think a female cannot do anything that a male can do I feel sorry for your mother.
We (collectively) are NO ONE to question anyone’s gender. Just like it’s not polite to ask someone about their genitals.
@Francis,
The main point of this story is not about men playing dress up, as you say, but about people who are intergender in some way. After following these stories for some time, I am not aware of any evidence to suggest that intergender (or transgender) people automatically have an advantage when competing with women. It is also perfectly fair to ask why only people who appear nonconforming get evaluated and apparently at the request of failed challengers. Isn’t it to the advantage of every non-1st place finisher to lodge a complaint in the hope of getting bumped up? How is that good sportsmanship?
Further, as one example, many former female competitors allege that Germany under Hitler tried to obtain dominance by actually sneaking in men dressed up as women. If true, that did not turn out too well.
As long as we are separating the sexes every competitor must fall in to one of the two categories recognized by the competitions. Exactly how do you propose to handle intergender (or transgender) people?
But yeah, if we’re going to separate the sexes then men dressed up shouldn’t be allowed to compete with women, but that is a different subject entirely.
Wow! I can’t believe any woman would promote the absurd idea of eliminating men’s and women’s division in sport. If you eliminate men’s and women’s divisions in sport then you will eliminate opportunity for women’s athletes around the world.
I hate to break the news to you, Ruby. But unless women make some giant evolutionary leap over men an elite woman will NEVER beat an elite man in sports. That may not be politically correct, but it is reality.
There are nearly 12 seconds that separate women from men in the 800M. 12 seconds! If you eliminated women’s divisions in sports, there wouldn’t be a single woman competing at IAAF World Championships.
Don’t believe me? The qualifying time for men in the 800m is 145.40. The world record for women? 153.28. In other words, there is nearly eight seconds between the qualifying time for men and the world record for women. So, the fastest woman in world history wouldn’t be able to qualify for the world championships. Your fantasyland where men and women compete in the same event would disqualify every woman on earth from the world championships.
So, what was the point of Title IX? Well, there goes that whole idea. Your fantasy world is a hindrance to promoting women’s athletics, not a support of women’s athletics.
The huge differences in men’s and women’s performances in sports means any man, even if he likes to play dress up and looks real pretty doing it, is a cheater if he participates in the women’s division. The person’s sex MUST be ascertained for the protection of the sport, whether if that fits a PC fantasy world or not.
Personally, I’m against separating the sexes for competition. Before I started pursuing other interests, I was a very successful competitor in martial arts. When I started there was a ten year old girl who could whip every person I ever saw her fight (including adult men). I find it hard to believe that such a young female could be so successful in such a physically demanding competitive environment, beat men in unofficial environments, and yet it is somehow unfair to her to allow her to compete with men if she chose.
I also agree with DaveW, other photos have shown this young lady out of context with muscles straining (pics typically reserved for men), but in this photo in context with other runners she looks just like everyone else, and, additionally, quite attractive. For what that’s worth.
But as you said Emma, the world of sports is not about to change to sex or gender neutrality. Nor are European cultures anywhere close to recognizing anything other than two dichotomous sexes.
But if people are being required to prove their sexes (based solely on complaints which seemed to be only sourced from failed competitors), these organizations should also be required to prove that any found sexual variance also results in an undue advantage.
I would also add that ever burgeoning sports medicine research is finding that many, if not most, world performers have unusual physical gifts that allow them to compete at a higher level than most. Are we going to start testing gender/sex conforming winners to determine if they had any special genetic advantages?
Actually gender is irrelevant; sex is not.
http://stuffqueerpeopleneedtoknow.wordpress.com/2009/08/20/runners-gender-speculation-ludicrous/
Anyone notice that while on the other story about this woman someone comments she has no bust, but in the picture tagged to this blog post NONE of the women have much of a bust.
What is the big deal? Let her enjoy the gold she has obviously won!