Subscribe to Breaking NewsCorvino: Dangerous Campsite?
“What do you think about my having sex with an 18-year-old?” a thirtysomething friend asked.
What do I think? Tread carefully.
Notice I said “Tread carefully,” not “Run in the other direction,” which was my initial gut reaction. So let me fill in some background.
The legal age of consent where these two live (Michigan) is 16. The 18-year-old is a recent high-school graduate. The thirtysomething guy has no interest in running for mayor of Portland.
The 18-year-old quite clearly initiated the flirtation between the two, and wants it to go further. This I observed personally, as I was present when they met.
Like most 18-year-old guys, he’s horny. He has not been impressed, thus far, with other guys he has met (usually on the internet).
The thirtysomething guy is good-looking, thoughtful, kind, and healthy. I’d rather see the 18-year-old hook up with him than with many of the guys he’s likely to encounter.
Aside from the age difference, and the accompanying educational and economic differences, there are no other obvious power imbalances (which is not to diminish the significance of those just mentioned). The 18-year old is not the thirtysomething’s student, or intern, or employee, for example.
Neither of them plans for this to be an ongoing thing-or so they now say. Recalling my own youthful tendency to fall hard for anyone who showed me romantic attention, one concern I had (and voiced) is that the 18-year-old might quickly want more than this relationship is likely to offer.
On the other hand, that risk-along with many of the others that come to mind-could arise in a peer relationship as well, the difference being that I trust my thirtysomething friend’s ability to handle the situation better than I trust most youths’.
All relationships carry risks, as the thirtysomething guy knows and the 18-year-old will learn in his own time. That includes risks for the older partner. The dynamics of power can shift when one falls in love or lust.
Regarding relationships with younger partners, the ever-insightful Dan Savage proposes his “campsite rule”: “leave ‘em in better shape than you found ‘em.”
Specifically, he says, “Don’t get ‘em pregnant, don’t give ‘em diseases, and don’t lead ‘em to believe that a long-term relationship is even a remote possibility.” Also, work to ensure that they emerge from the relationship with “improved sexual skills.”
Needless to say, the general campsite rule is a good rule for all sexual relationships. Non-sexual ones, too. But it becomes especially important with the young, who are vulnerable sexually.
The flip side of that vulnerability is receptiveness to positive input. Just as a bad sexual relationship during your formative years can permanently scar you, a good one can be a great blessing, instilling salutary habits. (Such as, use a condom every time. Tell your partner what feels good-and what doesn’t. Watch your teeth. And so on.)
All else being equal, an experienced partner can teach such things better than a novice.
Some will balk at this endorsement of “casual” sex. Yes, sex can be a deep, meaningful thing in the context of a committed relationship. But it can also be a safe and highly pleasurable experience between relative strangers, and I don’t think the casual kind now undermines the committed kind later. On the contrary, it can help train one-physically and emotionally-for the committed kind.
Many people harbor the peculiar idea that sex requires no training. We’re supposed to be able to do it instinctively, the way birds pushed from the nest fly. No wonder the world has so many lousy lovers.
I’m not suggesting that the solution is for older folks to start cruising high school parking lots. Let’s face it: there are plenty of unscrupulous characters who are all too eager to manipulate the young.
My friend is not in that category.
However, one might argue that the fact that so many ARE in that category is a good reason for endorsing a bright-line rule against sex with younger partners.
I agree that bright-line rules are sometimes necessary. For example, while some 13-year-olds would make better drivers than many adults, we don’t issue them licenses.
Legally, Michigan law sets that bright line at 16 for sex. (Other states vary.) I’m not convinced that the moral bright line in this case should be different, and I certainly don’t think that it should be over 18.
As one friend put it, crudely but accurately, “There are worse things you can do to an eager 18-year-old than give him a good blow job.”
I would add that, if you keep the campsite rule in mind, are honest and kind, and strive to be a good mentor, you might in fact do him a considerable service.
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John Corvino, Ph.D. is an author, speaker, and philosophy professor at Wayne State University in Detroit. His column “The Gay Moralist” appears Fridays on 365gay.com. Read more about him at www.johncorvino.com.
Why this is a headline article is amazing to me. Not that it’s not well written and sound expository logic. But seriously, don’t you have editors? The idea that this is a top-line article just makes us all look like fools. The greater issues of intra-generational sexing up shouldn’t be our main focus right now when we have so much to be fighting for and demanding of our world. I would expect the editors of the site to have some semblance of professionalism and priorities that math to a higher calling of journalism than Cosmo grade writing. What’s next “Corvino’s Top Ten Ways to Please Your Lover Below the Pantsline?”
Age of consent laws are an artificial and flawed method of determining something that takes maturity, not time spent on this planet, to decide.
It’s the mental capacity to be in touch with ones feelings enough to maintain whatever level of relatiosnhip you enter into, a fling or a longer term endeavor.
Yes, there’s a legal and moral imperative to protect kids from exploitation. But, and I know I’ll probably catch hell for saying this, not every cross-generational relationship is exploitive.
I have a unique perspective on this as I’ve experienced both sides. I had a brief relationship with a middle aged man when I was 15. I didn’t and still don’t feel I was “exploited” as I was a very willing participant in what I knew would be a learning experience and a few nights of fun.
In my late 30’s I started a relationship with a guy much younger than myself.
We’ve been together since he turned 18 and we’re going on eight years together.
I’m curious. To those who see nothing wrong with this situation. Are you a custodial, active parent? If you are a custodial, active parent and see nothing wrong with this situation, would you feel differently if the 18 year old were your son?
Some of you people are truly pathetic. I suspect overly religious childhoods or else terminal unattractiveness that render you unappealing to other adults – and thus results in a psychological aversion to anyone else finding happiness without major strings attached.
For Christ’s sake – MOST LATE TEENS AND TWENTYSOMETHINGS are NOT interested in long term relationships. They are interested in having uncomplicated interactions with other adults – sometimes more experienced adults. They ar enot looking for an Ozzie and Harriet existence that never has and never will exist. In short, they are NOT seeking to pattern their own lives around Mommy and Daddy.
Age of Coonsent implies that, sadly enough for Mumsie and Popsie – the newly-emerging adult DOES NOT HAVE TO GIVE A RAT’S ASS WHAT THEIR PARENTS ‘WANT” in regards to their own sex lives and relationships. I could not have cared less what my parents’ liked’ regarding my sexual choices and partners. After all, I was the one who had to sleep with them.
What motivates YOUR choices in partners and sexual frequency is completely IRRELEVENT to everyone else. Some of you need to learn that – quickly. I have met many 18 year-olds who are perfectly ready and mature enough for lovers in the 30s. And I know many 30 year-olds who ar enot mature enough for ANYONE of ANY age – let along teenagers.
But in any event, once one reaches the age of consent, what YOU, I, OR ANYONE ELSE likes or dislikes in the sexual choices of others is about as meaningful to teens as their ‘feelings’ about OUR choices.
So some of you really need to grow up – lighten up – and mind your own business.
The world would be a MUCH better place if everyone followed that simple rule.
I am not going to tell someone who is an adult they can’t have a sexual relationship with another adult.
But we all know that their is an older group who want nothing more than what is called “barely legal.” There are chicken hawks. There are those who are age-ist against older guys, even guys within ten years of their own ages. And we all know that these younger guys have come through a coming out process where their acceptance by their friends, family and communities can make them feel a little unaccepted, unwanted, and sometimes unloved.
It baffles me why men, who have lived a life experience would have that much in common with young guys who are just coming into their own.
And lets face it, young men can do it all night long. They don’t know what they are doing, but they can do it all night long. (Sorry, I love that joke.)
If you fall for a young guy, and he falls for you. Good luck. But for those of you who seek out a young guy as if that is the only thing you are attracted to, grow up.
TruthSpeaker said it best. If this were your 18 year old son, I doubt you’d be giving him a big thumbs up on this fling.
I find it interesting that John didn’t mention the exact age of the older person. I’m guessing it’s at least 36. In other words, twice the age of the younger person. To those that think this is okey-dokey, is there an actual age range that isn’t okay? At what point do you say this is turning into a father/son type relationship?
I’m kind of surprised at the vitriol in some of the comments. Some thoughts:
There is nothing lecherous or predatory about this situation. Mr. Corvino made it pretty clear that the 18 year initiated this. In fact, it’s a further credit to the 30-something subject of the attention that he questioned the appropriateness of it before just jumping into bed with the guy.
And I’d like to suggest some of you re-read and think about the “campstie rule”. Frankly, it’s a pretty good one, and it applies to ALL genders no matter the pairing. Some of you clearly missed that the rule means that IF the 30-something isn’t interested in a relationship he NEEDS TO BE CLEAR ABOUT IT UP FRONT. That gives the 18 year old the power to decide if he wants to having something casual.
If I was the parent of an 18 year old, I probably wouldn’t be crazy about this idea either, but then again, once the kid is 18, I’d have to hope I did a good enough job parenting him that he’d make intelligent decisions about his sexual health. And I’d certainly hope if he pursued a 30-something that that person was conscientious enough to follow the campsite rule.
And for those of you who think 18 year olds aren’t mature enough for this, or to drink, good for you. Now please go lobby your Congressperson and Senators to change the minimum age of military enlistment to 21 or older. If an 18 year old is mature enough to put on a uniform and defend this country, he or she is old enough to drink, and god forbid, initiate sex with an older person he/she finds attractive.
Last thought: maybe think about this from the 18 year old’s perspective. Perhaps this person is pursuing an older man BECAUSE he appreciates the 30-something’s wisdom and experience.
Peter and Breakers: You guys became my heores *two thumbs up*
The rest of you who oppose this atricle: I love how you follow the old adage of clumping all kinds of people into a single category, the only thing they have in common is a single identifying marker which has little to nothing to do with their personalities and their personalities and their maturity…hmmm let me think, I believe this practice is called STEREOTYPING. I am 16 years old. You read that right, 16. I am able to make fully concious decisions about my social and love lives: I don’t drink, I don’t smoke, I don’t use drugs, and i don’t abuse guys. I admonish the fact that you keep placing all teenagers and young adults into the same effing bin. My age is not what determines how i make mature decisions. It’s my concious mind which follows Logic and Reasoning. If I were to enter a (hypothetical) relationship with an older man, I would be the one to start it. He would not be pursuing me against my will, in fact i would be drawn to him for HIS personality and HIS character traits.
I have this feeling as if you guys are very overprotective and unwilling to let go of your children. If they are ready to leave the roost then let them, don’t hold them bnack and still make major decisions for them as you will either A: Inspire rebellion in them and you will earn their hatred and lose them forever or B: You will teach them to be helpless, dooming them to never be able to do anything major in life until you let go of them. Does that sound like it’s in their best interests for you to smother them when they need their own space and not you breathing down their necks 24/7? You were once their age and you were probably in this same situation…or you weren’t which would explain this whole kerfluffle.
Michael from Austin: I understand your concerns with the staff not covering the major news regarding LGBT politics right now, but you have to keep in mind that A: The bigwigs in Washington could honestly give a F*** about us or anyone that isn’t directly impacting their lives, so they are not really compelled to make decisions concerning our future around the clock. it’s not right but it’s the way it is and B: This site is more then just hot button issues. This article I found extremely helpful mostly because in 2-3 years it will severely pertain to me and the main reason because it’s different from the same old spiel you can find on every other gay newsblog on the WWW. Seriously if you were dying mainly for news like that go over to TheAdvocate.com instead of voicing your concerns here.
At first I had a negative reaction to the concept, but then I started reading the posts and asked why the hell I should make it my business. Then along came TruthSpeaker.
TruthSpeaker brought up things like age of consent and age at which it’s legal to consume alcohol. LAst year I believe it was, maybe the year before, Canadian PM Stephen Harper took it on himself to raise the age of consent across Canada, which had been well under 18. It was about squeamish small-town mentality and had nothing to do with real, documented harm to real people. The bit about the drinking age? Here’s a thought. In the US, you can’t drink ’til you’re 21, though there are EXTREMELY restricted circumstances when you can if you’re with your parents. Just being in a restaurant with them, or having them buy booze for a party, is NOT enough. Meanwhile, in Quebec a parent can allow a child to drink (beer or wine at least) in a restaurant at 13.
Yes, there is a difference between the mentality of a 14-year-old versus an 18-year-old. In the US, we have this strange practice of denying adolescents their legal adulthood as long as we can, yet we more than any other country bombard these kids with nonstop sexual imagery. “The Hills”–anybody think that crap is directed at a 49+ demographic?
Do I have kids? No, and that doesn’t strip me of the right to have an opinion on the subject of sexual morality because I was somebody’s kid. I used to work with a guy who would say, “I’d let my daughter date–when she was 40. And I unbricked her bedroom door. I know what guys are like.” He was a hound, but he also had a good heart. You don’t solve anything by keeping those in the 15ish-to-21ish age group cloistered. If you’re the adult in their life, you have an obligation to teach them about the world, teach them about the difference between being treated with respect versus being used and manipulated. The loving parent is looking to share wisdom and be there for support, not to live the child’s/adolescent’s life for them.
Yes, I do have a distinct discomfort with the idea of a 20- or 30-year age gap. Too often that’s a kid who’s a hustler, or there’s an older man who feeds on his, uh, “protege’s” youth. But you can’t stop all the bad things that happen in the world, and the best way to avoid them is to make sure that younger people aren’t left without survival tools simply because we adults might be squeamish.
Just from a mentalist perceptive I have despised people my age and would rather be abstinent and alone then be with someone my age. I am 20 now, but that was I thought when I was 18.
I didn’t want a 30 year old, but someone who could be intellectually equal to me as well as understand responsibility.
Ever since I was quite young I had to be quite responsible because I had to talk care of my sick mother. My mind created a stereotype that all men my age are nothing but sex addicts who cant be serious, mature, and responsible in relationships. That is why I looked to older men (23-28) who might have these qualities. However, I soon realized it is not the age but the mind that matters. I never dated but I saw the same problems in those older than me as compared to those equal in age to myself. After looking quite hard I saw and equal dichotomy of partnerships and failed relationships. Perhaps this 18 year old person has fallen for the same stereotype as I have when I was younger.
When my fiance and I first met in person (he was my boyfriend then) I started to realize that although he was roughly my same age he was everything and more than I could have ever imagined. If this 18 year old wants a 30 something, let him. If he wants a long lasting relationship with a partner who will love him as he love them, then age is not a deciding factor, the mind is.
I have seen in my first two years of college, 18 year olds be as mature and responsible as 30 year olds and 30 somethings being as immature and irresponsible than those of 18 year old.
Okay people, take a chill pill. The scenario presented illustrates someone who actually gives a damn and many of you can’t wait to pound him (or anyone who even faintly resembles him) into the ground. I was (and, sadly, remain) a bookish, introverted, nerdy guy. If it hadn’t been for a bunch of men in their 40s reaching out to me, I’d never have gotten laid AT ALL when I was 20, ‘cuz I CERTAINLY didn’t appeal to the guys who were my age (and they made THAT abundantly plain). Did I hope for more than a one night stand? Of course, but I knew then (and still believe) that there are some things about human behaviour that can only be learned by experience. I used to wonder about the terms “sex negative” and “sex positive.” Well, now I know – thanks to many of the people posting here – what sex-negative looks like.
Once again, thank you, Mr. Covino, for a thoughtful analysis of a tricky subject. As for The Menstruator’s comments, I’ll only say that I know some lesbians who love to screw gals younger than they are. If a gay man writes about what he knows (gay men), he’s sexist; if he writes about lesbians, how dare he presume to know what women feel and do! Damned it he does, damned if he doesn’t. NIce catch, that catch 22.
I am often critical of John Corvino’s columns, but he deserves praise for this one. So many of these comments here are absurd. If people are of legal age, they are free to enter into any kind of consensual relationship that pleases them. One of the great gay “marriages” (before they became legal) was that between Christopher Isherwood and Don Bachardy, which commenced when Bachardy was 18 and Isherwood was 48. See the recent documentary *Chris & Don.* In any case, quit trying to impose your Talibanic morality on other people. It is no more attractive when it comes from gays and lesbians than when it comes from Christian and Islamic fundamentalists.
best of luck to both.
As I suspected most involved in this discussion who are supportive of a “thirtysomething”/18 year old sexual tryst are, in fact, not full-time custodial parents.
Isn’t it fascinating that Dr. Corvino disguises the age of the “thirtysomething” friend. This means the guy could be my age, 39. I have an adopted son who is 20 and an adopted daughter who is 18 and am certainly old enough to be their biological parent. So, yes, I still say it’s morally (not legally) wrong for a “thirtysomething” adult to engage in a sexual tryst with an 18 year old. Men are humans, not animals, which means they are capable of controlling their sexual urges and impulses.
After reading this article and the reasons for it being OK, I’m beginning to understand more and more why LGBT people are viewed with such disdain by the heterosexual community.
As someone who adjuncts at a local community college, I also find it incredibly disturbing that someone working in academia would even remotely find this type of behavior to be acceptable. (I understand that the situation discussed in the column did not involve a professor/student scenario. Nonetheless, I still find it creepy and profoundly disturbing on many levels.)
And, Dr. Corvino’s line, “All else being equal, an experienced partner can teach such things better than a novice” is the same locker room mentality that says it’s OK for guys to have lots of sexual experience before marriage but not for women. Absolutely grotesque.
I’ve always been thankful that my two oldest children are heterosexual and hopeful that my two youngest (two year olds) will be heterosexual. But, in the past, I’ve felt this way because it means they won’t suffer the discrimination that I have. But, now, sadly, I can also add that they won’t be participants in a community that believes it’s acceptable for a thirtysomething male with more education, money, and life experience to “bed” an 18 year old.
And, I don’t discount that there are the rare EXCEPTIONS that this situation may be beneficial for both parties. But, those are the EXCEPTIONS, thus as a good, general life rule: men in their thirties should stay away from boys who are 18.