Subscribe to Breaking NewsCorvino: Dangerous Campsite?
“What do you think about my having sex with an 18-year-old?” a thirtysomething friend asked.
What do I think? Tread carefully.
Notice I said “Tread carefully,” not “Run in the other direction,” which was my initial gut reaction. So let me fill in some background.
The legal age of consent where these two live (Michigan) is 16. The 18-year-old is a recent high-school graduate. The thirtysomething guy has no interest in running for mayor of Portland.
The 18-year-old quite clearly initiated the flirtation between the two, and wants it to go further. This I observed personally, as I was present when they met.
Like most 18-year-old guys, he’s horny. He has not been impressed, thus far, with other guys he has met (usually on the internet).
The thirtysomething guy is good-looking, thoughtful, kind, and healthy. I’d rather see the 18-year-old hook up with him than with many of the guys he’s likely to encounter.
Aside from the age difference, and the accompanying educational and economic differences, there are no other obvious power imbalances (which is not to diminish the significance of those just mentioned). The 18-year old is not the thirtysomething’s student, or intern, or employee, for example.
Neither of them plans for this to be an ongoing thing-or so they now say. Recalling my own youthful tendency to fall hard for anyone who showed me romantic attention, one concern I had (and voiced) is that the 18-year-old might quickly want more than this relationship is likely to offer.
On the other hand, that risk-along with many of the others that come to mind-could arise in a peer relationship as well, the difference being that I trust my thirtysomething friend’s ability to handle the situation better than I trust most youths’.
All relationships carry risks, as the thirtysomething guy knows and the 18-year-old will learn in his own time. That includes risks for the older partner. The dynamics of power can shift when one falls in love or lust.
Regarding relationships with younger partners, the ever-insightful Dan Savage proposes his “campsite rule”: “leave ‘em in better shape than you found ‘em.”
Specifically, he says, “Don’t get ‘em pregnant, don’t give ‘em diseases, and don’t lead ‘em to believe that a long-term relationship is even a remote possibility.” Also, work to ensure that they emerge from the relationship with “improved sexual skills.”
Needless to say, the general campsite rule is a good rule for all sexual relationships. Non-sexual ones, too. But it becomes especially important with the young, who are vulnerable sexually.
The flip side of that vulnerability is receptiveness to positive input. Just as a bad sexual relationship during your formative years can permanently scar you, a good one can be a great blessing, instilling salutary habits. (Such as, use a condom every time. Tell your partner what feels good-and what doesn’t. Watch your teeth. And so on.)
All else being equal, an experienced partner can teach such things better than a novice.
Some will balk at this endorsement of “casual” sex. Yes, sex can be a deep, meaningful thing in the context of a committed relationship. But it can also be a safe and highly pleasurable experience between relative strangers, and I don’t think the casual kind now undermines the committed kind later. On the contrary, it can help train one-physically and emotionally-for the committed kind.
Many people harbor the peculiar idea that sex requires no training. We’re supposed to be able to do it instinctively, the way birds pushed from the nest fly. No wonder the world has so many lousy lovers.
I’m not suggesting that the solution is for older folks to start cruising high school parking lots. Let’s face it: there are plenty of unscrupulous characters who are all too eager to manipulate the young.
My friend is not in that category.
However, one might argue that the fact that so many ARE in that category is a good reason for endorsing a bright-line rule against sex with younger partners.
I agree that bright-line rules are sometimes necessary. For example, while some 13-year-olds would make better drivers than many adults, we don’t issue them licenses.
Legally, Michigan law sets that bright line at 16 for sex. (Other states vary.) I’m not convinced that the moral bright line in this case should be different, and I certainly don’t think that it should be over 18.
As one friend put it, crudely but accurately, “There are worse things you can do to an eager 18-year-old than give him a good blow job.”
I would add that, if you keep the campsite rule in mind, are honest and kind, and strive to be a good mentor, you might in fact do him a considerable service.
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John Corvino, Ph.D. is an author, speaker, and philosophy professor at Wayne State University in Detroit. His column “The Gay Moralist” appears Fridays on 365gay.com. Read more about him at www.johncorvino.com.
As long as people consent and behave ethically, I would not object to relations with large age differences. I had a beautiful mutually beneficial relationship for 2 years with a beautiful youth of 23 when I was 66. He loved me and I loved him. It was a wondeful experience. I think people who object to such relationship are perhaps overly jealous!
This teaches youths to expect nothing but temporary flings and gives old men a chances to get some prime USDA Chicken instead of having a normal healthy relationship, because a 30 year old only wants one thing from an 18 year old and it is not to talk about Dagrassi or the Hills. The Trolls!!!
Mr Corvino you give the GLBT rights Movement a bad name by encouraging exploitation of the most fragile and vulnerable in our community. Just because you are getting on in years and have the long tooth doesn’t mean you should right a paper that puts young people who are looking for our communal love and support into the hand of those who would exploit them and teach them the wrong values when it comes to fidelity and commitment.
P.S your article was completely misogynistic
My O my, such trepitation over this topic. Why is it that some folks have a cow over this topic? Both of these guys are of age. So what if one is 18 and the other 30? Why are some folks ’suggesting’ pediophilia? I suggest it is because our society has gone nuts over the past decade or so. The way the news and airwaves have covered this, one would think there is rampant sexual pediophilia run amouck. That is what I find sicking. Percentage wise, there no doubt has not been a change in centuries. My parents had a 13 year difference in ages and there was love until her death. My father then was chased by another women who was 16 years difference and there was love until his death. Relationships due happen no matter what the age differences. It is about the soul, the mind, the companionship that folks crave. It is not one lucious hunky body slamming against another that makes a relationship. Folks who think differently are the ones with the ‘dirty’ mind. Women seem to have an issue with this, including my own sister. Yet, she would ignore the love of our own parents for her own sense of ‘feminism.’ I say get a life and leave those who wish to love for whatever reason and amount of time due it. Life is too short.
They are not predators for the last time! They are not hunting these young adults, so calm down.
If they were it would be a very serious issue, but thats not the case now is it?
Wow. It’s clear that you don’t have any children and I’m willing to bet neither does your thirtysomething friend. It’s in appropriate when a thirtysomething man sleeps with an 18 year old girl, when a thirtysomething woman sleeps with an 18 year old boy, when a thirtysomething woman sleeps with an 18 year old girl, AND when a thirtysomething man sleeps with an 18 year old boy. As a society we have determined that an 18 year old (rightly so) is too irresponsible to consume alcohol. The same should be true for sex. Any thirtysomething person who would sleep with an 18 year old of any sex displays questionable judgment and is only interested in their own self gratification. These two individuals are at completely different places in their life and its inherent that the one who should have the better judgment recognize this fact and send the 18 year old on his way.
And thank you for helping to reinforce the stereotype that gay men are unable to control their sexual impulses and therefore prey on the vulnerabilities of the young and inexperienced.
Casual sex is fine if done safely and done between adults who are on the same plane in life. An 18 year old and a thirtysomething adult are not on the same plane and never will be.
Menstruator, you’re words are highly sexist. It is as simple as that.
When I was nineteen I had a relationship with a thirty year old. Out of a number of guys I saw throughout college, He was the only guy that didn’t “screw me over.” And yes the sex was incredible… but more than that he was thoughtful, helped me with a number of problems I had at the time, and ultimately obeyed the “campsite” rule.
But seriously, the Mentruator should change her name to “The Parrot”… there is no intelligence in her words.
You are only here so that people will go and read your blog. Advertise somewhere else!
I should also add that the excuse that it’s “legal” is totally lame. Just because something is legal doesn’t make it morally acceptable or decent behavior. Pornography is legal. Strip clubs are legal in many places. Both of these industries; however, degrade women and do little to help teach heterosexual men to have a healthy respect and sexual desire for women. So, yep, they’re legal, but it doesn’t make it right. Cigarettes are legal, but smoking your life away is a foolish decision. Consuming alcohol is legal and being a drunk (as long as you don’t drive and aren’t in public) is legal, but rotting out your liver is foolish.
If you have to justify a behavior by saying it’s “legal” then it’s most likely not a moral and just decision.
I can’t believe the folks agreeing with this column. It’s little wonder that the heterosexual world sees as us freaks. And, just to note, I’m a gay man in a committed relationship with 4 children (two through surrogacy and two adopted). If a thirtysomething man slept with my 18 year old (daughter or son), it may be legal but my response to it won’t be when the thirtysomething guy finds himself on the opposite side of my fist or personal taser.
When I was 19 and just out of the closet, No one did me any favors by showing me the art of one night stands and sex buddies. Sex was a drug to me, just one of many that I had experimented with. Sure it was harmless at first but it led to loneliness and as the result didn’t learn the art of dating and romance and relationships. This could have led to self loathing. Closet people dont have relationships, they only go for the blowjob. Sex is private, relationships are more public. I would have been better off learning relationship and freindship with a 30 something than just sex techniques.
Umm. 18 is legal, right? I say, if in doubt, get a photocopy of the younger’s state driver’s license, and a written/signed letter from him and a video deposition of him stating he is 18. Have the letter notarized, if you must. Then, seal it all up in an airtight container and lock it away in a bank safety deposit box.
Using proper protection, of course, go have mad monkey sex for crying out loud. Just don’t hand him any alcohol or you’re liable for contributing to the delinquency of a minor.
How screwed up is THAT???
I am stunned at some of the comments to this article. I mean honestly, if you’re not one of the parties in the relationship, why are you passing judgment on it? Why would you want to attack someone elses chance at happiness, even if it only lasts for a moment?
The belief that couples have to be of similar ages is an outdated conservative mind set. I’m a young gay man of 23 years, and I find myself attracted to men older than myself. You can nit-pick reasons why a younger man and an older man would want to get involved, but who cares! I follow my heart, and it has brought me such happiness.
For some of you out there, are your lives so empty and bitter that you can’t wait to cut down anyone who doesn’t fit your ‘perceived view of life’?
I always enjoy your articles John, and I look forward to the next mind field you show us. =D
And since when is sex about being a “mentor”? This whole column makes me ill. It’s crude. It’s poorly constructed and is simply self-justification for lecherous behavior. Since the legal age of consent is 16, would it be ok if this kid were 16? What about 17?
This is not a mentoring relationship. This is taking advantage of a less experienced and less sophisticated young adult. While not a crime, it’s certainly a moral outrage.
It is time that gay men back away from this feminist crap and start to look at what is male!
First, the 18 year old is of leagal age.
Second,because you are a man does not mean that you are “using” or “oppressing” some one younger.
Third, pedophilia is the attraction of an adult with a “pre-pubesant”.
Forth, the description of the circumstances related in the article does in no way describe a preditory action on either part.
Fith, how long are we going to keep looking at 18 year olds as kids unless the government gives them a gun and has them shoot the bad men.
I am so tired of men being cloaked as evil unless they buy into the female view point. It is nice to see alot of men, who by the way were 18 year olds, stand up and say get over it no one is getting hurt. As far as I am concerned the reason I don’t date 18 year olds is in most cases they are just annoying.
Ok,, I am 31 years old. I look about 3 to 4 years younger, because I don`t drink much and I rarely smoke. This doesn`t mean I am the poster child for health either. I have recently accepted that my lifelong obsession with trying to be a skinny twink will never happen. I have come to accept myself as the chub slash bear slash «fluffy» that I am. And as having accepted myself as such, I have to deal with chasers, who are my type. I find that my ideal age range, being 25-35 is damned near devoid of chasers, especially in Montréal where I live. In fact, I expanded my relationship age range from 25-35, to 21-39, but low and behold I still get chased by those who fall outside of my age range. Ok, very few if any guys over 40 interest me, as anything other than good friends. And while I am interested in younger guys, the prospect of a relationship with immature, often closeted young guys doesn`t appeal to me either.
Recently I`ve met chasers at 20 and 18, both are mature and well adjusted given their ages. One is in university, the other works a full time job, both have been out since around 15-16. Both interest me for different reasons, but I have also told both that I am older, looking for more than just sex and to be fair, that they have their whole lives ahead of them. The older guy accepts this prospect and sees me as a mentor, friend and fuckbuddy. The younger one, seems to relish the idea of an older boyfriend. Neither one wants to be used for sex and then caste aside for some other conquest. It`s not fair to them to apply this «campsite rule», the life of a gay man is not summer camp, not in the least. Even if this summer camp rule would apply, which it shouldn`t, it should be reserved for younger lovers and summer boyfriends of those in their teens(13-19). As gay men, when we get older, we need to realize that there are all kinds of relationships be they platonic, sexual, hetero-life mates, gay friends who are like brothers, older Dutch uncles, etc. But sexually exploiting gay youth, who are already vulnerable yet open hearted turning them into bitter queens incapable of loving shouldn`t be acceptable. At their age, they`re so open hearted, their «types» aren`t set in stone, they love people and want to be loved back. The last thing we should accept from an intergenerational experience is what you propose. In my humble opinion Corvino, it is the least moral option within a complicated situation.
I was talking yesterday night to a gaggle of med students from the Université de Montréal who were in the gay village. I told them, that at my age I am jealous that they got to grow up in such a welcoming environment and time. For those of you who know anything about Québec and how gay friendly and post-gay it is, you know what I am talking about. I told them I came out in the South, and while mom was supportive she was never as supportive as she is now. But while I am jealous, I am also happy, it means that those of us who have had to suffer, fight, bicker among ourselves and even die for the cause have something to show for all our work. (This doesn`t mean we don`t have a LONG way to go, but that we`ve made progress). One thing I told them, which made it easier for me growing up gay in the South(Alabama, Tennessee, Louisiana) was that when I came out, I had older gay friends. I wasn`t attracted to older guys, but having non-sexual relationships with gay men who served as my older brother type, made things easier for me. I had a mentor, who was HIV positive who taught me everything there was to know about avoid HIV. I had a friend who was in his late 30s, who had travelled the world but grew up in rural South Alabama, who mentored me in how to deal with guys and have some self esteem. When I was in New Orleans I had a friend, mentor and bartender to serve me free drinks who was in his 50s. And all of these relationships were never sexual, and the one thing which I believe would have ruined these mentor type relationships would have been if I were used for sex and caste aside. Being used for sex and caste aside hurts, even when it’s someone young and stupid. But when an older trusted type does this kind of behavior, it hurts even worse in my opinion.
Just food for thought.