Subscribe to Breaking NewsWithers: The black gay divide
Yes I’m a few days late on this. Mainly because I’m really really really really really really really tired of talking about Proposition 8 and race. At this point we are talking past each other and no matter what I say, even if I say it twice, and in italics, some of you are going accuse me of excuse making or being racist. Meh.
This past week-end the New York Times had an opinion piece that looked at the aftermath of the Prop 8 vote. It would be nice if the essay actually did something outside of insulting everyone involved. Dan Savage and I are never going to agree on this, but he needs credit for pointing to a slight problem in the writers’ premise, namely that gay folk need to keep marriage rights on the down low.
Even with that weakness though, the essay does point to something I’ve been arguing about ever since the Donnie McClukin story during the Democratic primary. There is a chasm in the Democratic Party between blacks who attend church and secular gays. The polls have shown consistently that when it comes to gay issues, black Protestants mirror the talking points of the Republican Party.
This breach is not going to be repaired if people say stuff like blacks are the most homophobic people in the history of the world, or some noise about race being the ultimate sign of discrimination. But one of the issues with the oppression game is hyperbole and moral outrage are the only languages used and neither are helpful in forming coalitions.
James, I have a question. A number of black leaders have come out in support of gay marriage, or at the very least against banning it. If the majority of blacks don’t listen to black leaders on this issue, why would they listen to gays?
http://www.southernvoice.com/2008/7-18/news/national/8884.cfm?page=2
This article is from July, before the crap hit the fan.
The RADICAL REALEST is a white man, he is not “black,African American, or even Indian”.
I think he is a full of hatred towards Obama supporters,blacks,latinos,asians,interracial relationships or anyone not his beautiful white skin.Why would you support a racist,Obama hater???
Wow, James you so predicted it.
I like the comments from the Radical Realist very much. His comments remind me of a sign I saw here on the street in downtown Cleveland. It was on the second floor of a public urban design studio and it showed a parade of people marching with a sign that said “Lesbians and Gays against racism”. And I thought, fine, but when am I going to see a sign that says, “Hetero blacks against homophobia/heterosexism”? This urban design studio was associated with an university so it was very PC in regard to race but again not PC enough to include gay people.
Someone said they marched for black civil rights. That was me too but I think at the time (a long time ago) alot of us were thinking if we gave enough, and helped them, then our day would come and they would support us. That hasnt happened but at least now I know the score and am not naive.
Patience, Patience. The mocking remarks posted in these blogs toward people of faith (regardless of color) seem too strong, defeatist, and overly emotional. We need more confidence to enjoin conservative religious people in debate/dialogue to influence, persuade, and possibly change their minds about GLBT issues/life. It is so easy to despise conservatives (and I am very liberal) and conclude they are obstinate and can’t change. But the real objective isn’t just getting married to aggravate them but to also persuade and influence them to see our dignity and worth and share in our lives without shame. How can we engage them, even argue with them, effectively? How can we quietly and gently question scriptures that seem too final/clear-cut about gay and lesbian love? Let’s find a voice that is not too shrill.
What a shocker! Withers FAILS again!
I’m going to reiterate the points I made in previous comments on your posts (none of which you’ve bothered to respond to because you apparently find it easier to guilt white commenters into shying away from challenging your null arguments than responding to the criticisms of your opinions made by other gays of color).
>>>”This breach is not going to be repaired if people say stuff like blacks are the most homophobic people in the history of the world, or some noise about race being the ultimate sign of discrimination.”
No,this breach is not going to be repaired if blacks continue to sit around on their lazy asses blindly following irrational dogma.
Why, pray tell, do you always place the responsibility of education and mind/heart changing on LGBT people? In my own black family, I see laziness, stupidity, and unwillingness to open up a damn book besides the silly, retarded bible. Is that behavior the “white devil’s” fault? Are there KKK members standing guard outside of public libraries making sure no black people can enter? Is this aversion to self-education the gays’ fault? Is the very existence of LGBT people in the world too crippling that it forces black people to hide in their homes with their eyes shut, clinging to the bible?
You know the answer to this, you know damn well it is NO.
Then why not encourage blacks to educate themselves and learn a thing or two or twenty about the differences of people around them? You seem to expect everyone else to do that, why is it too much to ask for blacks to do the same? They need special “outreach” because they are black? Hmm…sounds like racism.
You claim to also be willing to address homophobia in the black community, but where is it? I have heard nothing from you criticizing blacks, but I have seen endless whining about the “privileged white gays” hurting black peoples’ feelings. What about gay people’s feelings, Withers? Just in case you haven’t noticed, blacks were a part of voting away the rights of gays, NOT the other way around.
Until you have the same amount of articles criticizing black homophobia as you have calling white gays “racist”, no one will take you seriously.
Look, if you would rather protect your delusional mother’s or father’s belief in a zombie-jew skydaddy than the rights and dignity of gays, then by all means, do so. But do not pretend to care about gay rights as much as you care about blacks remaining intellectually stagnant. You clearly do not.
Again, do the world a favor and stop making your thoughts public. Your presence only serves to make all gays of color seem like self-centered, helpless, cotton-picking fools.
James,
I’m agreeing with you more and more. The gay movement is a failure if it can’t reach out to gay and straight people of color. We have to do better. Also, the gay rights movement must do a better job reaching out to religious organizations.
What can you recommend that we do? Your analysis is dead on, but I want more discussion on how we can take the next step foward. I don’t think Keith Boykin by himself is enough
Sean,
http://www.365gay.com/blog/102308-poll-shows-weak-support-for-prop-8/
Sincerely,
James
You’re right on that point: mea culpa. But that doesnt address the other points in my response. Whenever you have a few minutes to spare, I’d *love* to hear your take on them.
Sean Martin,
I suggest you re-read the post again. Keeping marriage rights on the down-low was the suggestion of the New York Times opinion piece. Writer Dan Savage called that advice into question and I agreed with him.
Sincerely,
James Withers
Keep marriage rights on the “down low”? Pray, for how long would you suggest we do that? Till “the time is right”? When “it’s appropriate to do so”?
At the risk of talking past you, Mr. Withers, I will simply state yet again: black people should freakig know better what oppression and discrimination are all about, and yet they chose — by a large margin — to act in just as bigoted and oppresive a way as whites did to them during the “glorious” days of the Civil Rights marches. They have apparently learned *nothing* except that “religion trumps all”, failing of course to remember that religion was one of the things that forced blacks to stay “in their place” until someone decided that maybe everyone should rise above it and treat *all* people as equals.
Funny how such a simple line of thought gets tossed out the window, and especially funny how you sit there and tell me I should just “wait” until people are more “accepting”. If the black community had taken such a stance in the early 60s, they’d *still* be waiting.
Well, if nothing else, this does prove that the fight for gay rights is very much on par with that for black rights. We’re seeing the same irrational defences, the same illogical justifications, the same absurdist pronouncements. Maybe all of you should go back and read some of the apologetic columnists who wrote on this stuff back in the mid 60s, and then tell me if *anything* is any different.
“horrific HATE crimes,” not “horrific STRAIGHT crimes,” though they WERE committed by (allegedly) straight men.
B B-C
This started before the vote. From http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2008/11/7/34645/1235/704/656272
“We used to have lots more Black folks here — as is evident in even the differene between the 2000 Census and 2006 ACS data, but there has been a reverse migration of African-Americans out of California for the past 15 years or so, the bulk of which has been in the past 5 years. We are the only demographic in California whose population estimates are going down, not up, each year. Rapidly going down, at that, due to the economic difficulties that poor and working class people have had surviving in this state since the dot-com boom. Unfortunately, it’s just going to get worse thanks to the California foreclosure crisis, which has devastated Black and Latino communities throughout the state, but it is too early to know new numbers just yet; the 2010 census will be telling.”
Attempting to “reach out” to konstipated konservative kristianist kultist krazies of ANY race is an exercise in time-wasting.
You’re not going to convince them with rational arguments, because they’re not rational. They believe in talking snakes and burning bushes and seas parting and Jonah surviving in the belly of a whale (!) and all the rest.
Faith is illogical.
I have no problem with those who choose to embrace it … believe in magic underpants and gold tablets and rose-colored spectacles … I could care less … right up to the point where they use it as an ILLEGAL and IMMORAL excuse to take away my SECULAR CIVIL rights.
Black preachers, like ALL preachers, are selectively deaf and blind. They chose not to hear Dr. and Mrs. King on the subject of marriage equality. They choose not to see bisexual black men (including many of their own number) on the “down-low,” practicing unsafe sex and spreading AIDS, which they call “The White Man’s Disease.”
Just TRY to do AIDS outreach in a black church. The answer likely will be:
“DON’T EQUATE YOUR *SIN* WITH THE COLOR OF MY *SKIN!*
I am tired, tired, TIRED of hearing about black peoples’ suffering. Black people suffered under slavery for 200 years; they were SOLD into slavery by their OWN people in Africa, who were ALSO SLAVE OWNERS (!); GAY people have suffered, been tortured, and DIED under CHRISTIANITY for two THOUSAND years. If you think horrific straight crimes like Matthew Shepard’s torture and murder are not a DIRECT result of kristianist homophobia, then you have a terminal case of recto-cranial inversion (look it up).
Yes, we can “pass” … and live in terror of being found out and fired, evicted, beaten, or killed.
“My oppression is greater than your oppression” is the oldest game / pity party in the world.
I MARCHED for black civil rights, and for farm workers’ rights, and THIS is the thanks I get??!!
FORGET IT!!! The black community owes US an apology!!!!
Bud Burgoon-Clark
2nd class citizen
thanks to the KKKKK (see above)
Not only the most homophobic in the world, but the most racist too. Most reject interracial marriage, and ask any Latino who trys to buy a house in South Central Los Angeles. Ask Reginald Denny. Instead of making excuses, the hard work of confronting these ideas is what’s needed. Ignore it and it will continue.