Subscribe to Breaking NewsWithers: Are we all victims?
If you strayed from 365 for the Thanksgiving week-end, you missed a political flame war. The conversation ranged from the sublime to the silly. I even got called a racist; I informed a friend, who happens to be black, of that charge. We were both rather drunk and he laughed in my face.
“You a racist? Don’t they know you are the whitest black man in America,” he howled.
Follow the thread of the debate if you will. There are two things that need to be stressed. With no shame, I admit being lukewarm to the terms “LGBT” and “gay community.” Both minimize our political differences and negate our memberships to other tribes.
Sure there are larger political issues gays and lesbians can coalesce around (anti-discrimination laws, etc. etc), but outside of that I’m not sure the political needs of the white lesbian couple living in the outback of Montana and the Asian bisexual kid walking down Christopher Street are one in the same. Neither is better than the other, their political agendas meet sometimes, but it does not serve gay rights to somehow act like our ships are headed in the same direction.
That leads to another point of contention. Not every gay person living in this country is a victim. Years ago, in college, I lived in a predominantly black dorm. Was part of the black student organization and whenever we talked about America, we spoke like the wretched of the earth.
Some of us did come from dire backgrounds, others working class, many from backgrounds of wealth and prestige. But we were college students who knew where our three meals were coming from, had basic health care, and our biggest concern was if we were going to do well in that “American poetry since 1945″ course (I didn’t by the way).
The above observation does not mean no one struggled nor had difficult waters to navigate, but when compared to our peers who were not able to attend a mid-western college, our lives were soft. Yes we were black, but not all of us were victims of racist America and it was hyperbole when we painted ourselves as such.
The same applies for gays and lesbians. Over the week-end there has been a conversation about every gay person in America, just because of his/her sexuality, being a victim. That mantra does not acknowledge the privilege many of us gay folk have (and please don’t go crazy because being privileged is not only about race); it also diminishes those gays and lesbians who are really victims of anti-gay prejudice.
We all have our stories of strife and struggle, but If we are all victims what about the real ones, who have to deal with the vagaries of discrimination and bigotry? Where do they fit if a pampered typist like me can claim the mantle of oppression?
To make victimology the bloodline of every gay and lesbian is to disregard the narrative of our history. Are we where we need to be? No. Nope. Nada, Let me say that one more time because some of you have difficulty with reading: we are not where we need to be!! But the claim of all pervasive gay martyrdom is to have an utter disregard for how far the struggle has come.
Many of you saw the biopic Milk this week-end. The late 1970’s political climate does not equal the early part of the 21st century and to make every gay and lesbian the poor prey of the straight world is a disservice to Milk’s legacy.
Righteous anger feels good and has it’s proper place, but distorts the complexity of the world we inhabit. The gay rights movement succeds when it does not shy from that very complexity.
Not all of us are victims, but many of us are. You don’t have to be a victim on a grand scale to be affected by the intolerance that surrounds us. Most of our personal struggles are fairly quiet because of the retribution we fear. See, we are not like the blacks who fought for their rights decades ago, because we can’t be identified with just a look. We have the (fortunate?) ability to hide that which makes us susceptible to hate.
We are not all victims, but until things get better, we are *potential* victims. And I would much rather be proactive than reactive.
I understand your basic concept of victimization, but I disagree with parts of it.
Every Gay person is a victim. I remember being in a gay friends upscale antique shop, with a few other gay friends, talking about dates we had the bars etc. The moment a customer came in we all stopped what we were talking about and changed the subjects.
NO one had to say be quiet, or someone came in, we all reacted as if on command and shut up.
All gay people are victims in one sense or another, either by having to lie to family, friends, or ourselves.
Try looking at a straight man and you may be beaten up, try holding hands in the hills of Tennessee!
Ann Frank had to live a good part of her life in a closet, as every gay person does, no matter how out they are. In certain parts of this country you will be murdered for being gay, and believe me, you will hide that fact to survive.
I was the victim of a violent hate crime, I received over 110 stitches to the back of my head., a blown out eye socket, fractured cheek bone and numerous lasherasions
Sam, I can agree that on some level gay people have been victims of discrimination. But not nearly as overtly and actively as the black race.
You say, “All gay people are victims in one sense or another, either by having to lie to family, friends, or ourselves.” And of course there are times when physical safety is an issue where discretion is the better part of valor, but most of lie by omission (as your antique shop example) simply for convenience rather than safety.
Most of us have suffered discrimination at our own hands one time or another when it was completely unnecessary. We change subjects, we leave a conversation, we change the pronouns we use. When we do we present a dishonest image of ourselves. When we crawl back into the closet of invisibility rather than step up to the plate and insist on being treated equally, we ought not be surprised when the vote goes in favor of discrimination.
I have to agree this victim badge is very heavy and not fitting for the happy, loving and financially comfortable life most of the gays I know live.
However, to try to say we aren’t victims like the blacks were because they were owned or beaten or raped or not employed or segregated etc., etc. is omitting the reason: difference in magnitude of victim-hood.
Yes, blacks were TAKEN from their homes and brought over here to be owned and beaten and live in work camps (some owned by my ancestors). I am very much aware of what my southern family did and can’t really visit the south without guilt and hatred welling up.
But I work in the corporate world. I miss invitations to dinners with spouses, don’t get invited to the weekends away at country houses and certainly don’t go to the basement man caves where sports talk rules.
That may be by choice on my part, but part of that choice comes from not being able to totally fit into the corporate mold no matter what I do. I have married a man and you can’t change that.
Where might the careers of all us gay corporate toilers have gone if we had a pretty blond wife at our side? How much better could I have performed if she packed my bags and dropped me off at the airport with the other ladies well rested and prepared for my business with no care to the home life.
Straight men simply have a huge advantage in the corporate world and they are EXTREMELY uncomfortable with succesful gays and women. I know I generalize, but I’ve spent 20 years watching the shark-types that rise to the top.
So while I enjoy the life my hard work has created for my family, I won’t complain too much, but when they try to say I shouldn’t be married, or that I am equal to a criminal, I will wear that victim badge with pride.
And I won’t engage in arguments of who suffered more. How pathetic…not an argument anyone would want to win.
This gay person of color still wants to see Withers FIRED for incompetency, foolishness, and douchebaggery in the first degree.
Once again Withers, you fail miserably.
How do you fail? Let me count the ways…
It is true that everyone is an individual and that just because someone is gay doesn’t mean they agree with all other gays on various issues from political ideology to religion. However, that does not mean that these individuals cannot band together to fight for common ideals and rights that affect them or that they care about. I do not agree with many people, gay or straight, when it comes to politics, economics, or religion, but that does not mean that I cannot stand with someone who disagrees with me on those issues in order to fight for a cause that we do agree on, such as the right for gay couples to be treated equally under the law. I may be an atheist and they a christian, but that doesn’t mean that we can’t agree on and fight for gay equality. Just because we both protest an anti-gay law doesn’t mean they have to go with me to protest faith-based funding. An individual can fight for many different causes and identify with many different communities and handle that just fine. Not every single thing about a person needs to be encompassed just for them to join that community. If you are incapable of handling pluralism of ideas, then go ahead and start your own “Black Gays who are Intellectually Retarded and Masturbate Frequently to Pictures of the Black Panther Party” community. But there is nothing wrong with people who choose to identify with a certain group or several separate groups in banding together and fighting for common ideals.
As for victimization, you are conflating legal justice and social justice. Under United States law, ALL gay people ARE victims. That is an indisputable fact. We are ALL victims of unequal treatment under the law, whether we are white, black, rich, poor, educated, uneducated, insured, uninsured, etc. When it comes to the law, we are ALL underprivileged.
In terms of social justice, that varies. There are poor gays, rich gays, liberal gays, conservative gays, white gays, black gays, etc ad nauseam. Of course a poor hispanic gay will probably suffer more socially than a rich white gay, but that DOES NOT change the fact that both gays are victims of unjust laws. Most gay communities focus on both legal and social justice. Therefore, when a gay community in Seattle, Washington boycotts, protests, or otherwise raises awareness and visibility,they are also standing for and benefiting the rights of poor black gays in Alabama. Are all of the interests and needs met for the Alabamans by the Seattle gay community? No. But that does not mean that they are not benefiting from the advancement of gay rights.
Take the Martin Luther King led struggle for black rights. Many people who worked closely with him were atheists, socialists, and communists. Would you say that the atheists, socialists etc. should just splinter off and form their own activist community that encompasses both black rights and socialism? Should the atheists not stand in solidarity with MLK Jr. just because he is a christian? You know the answer is no. You know that people can come together for particular causes even if they disagree on other subjects. You say that using terms like “gay community” deny the complexity of issues, but you are actually the one who wants things simplified. You are the one who is not able to handle pluralism in ideology and thought.
Don’t you dare talk about Harvey Milk’s legacy when you are here advocating separatism of every single different interest. Harvey Milk unified all people regardless of race, religion, or creed. If he had followed your advice, he’d only have been the leader of the “Gay Jew Navy Veterans from New York” movement.
Educate yourself: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvfexvihri8&eurl=http://news.lavenderliberal.com/category/lgbt-history/harvey-milk/&feature=player_embedded
You are doing a disservice to every cause you claim to support. You should do humanity a favor and stop publishing your thoughts in public.
James, I understand the point you are trying to make, and in one sense I agree but on another level I disagree. Merriam-Webster defines “victim as (1): one that is injured, destroyed, or sacrificed under any of various conditions (2): one that is subjected to oppression, hardship, or mistreatment . By this definition, the entire gay community is indeed a victim in the sense that we are officially second-class citizen as the current laws discriminate against us.
I think your article speaks more to the degree of victimhood, rather than its existence in the gay community. It is true that wealth and power will offset much in the way of discrimination in that those who are wealthy do not have to fear losing a job, they can hire private security, they can afford to participate and assert their influence in our legal system when they have been wronged and generally avoid much of the unpleasantness that being a victim entails.
People like Elton John live a life much different than a 15 year-old who is kicked out of his home for being gay and who is still not a victim to the degree that unfortunates such as Matt Shepard are. The problem is that if we only consider those who suffer additional hardships, such as being homeless or murdered, a victim, we ignore the underlying cause that allows these events to happen. The fear, hatred and intolerance that we all suffer at the hands of our legal system is what allows people to justify kicking their kid out on the street and is what allows people to believe that murder of gay people is not as serious a crime as the murder of a straight person. If we understand that social and legal injustice are the foundations and underlying causes for all the truly heinous acts that are committed against us, then we have a better chance of eliminating them at the source, rather than throwing the occasional murderer in prison, after the fact.
Gay people are being victimized, it’s just that a lot of gay people live in more insulated environments than in the past, but that is not true for all gay people. It’s like when Corvino did that opinion article telling people to get over themselves if they didn’t like how he made jokes about the prop 8 protest rallies. Not everyone has a great gay life where gay discrimination to them is a politically incorrect joke or some off-the-cuff remark by a politician or occasional bigot.
Not everyone lives in gay friendly environments, are well situated, content with a partner, satisfied enough with where and/or what they are in life that the remaining issues regarding homosexuality are not great enough to illicit a ‘victim’ response until something bad happens.
What does a victim mean to you?
Are we treated equally? No.
Are we rejected by families and friends? Yes.
Do we still live under the threat of being attacked, harassed, or even killed for who we are, because of ‘what’ we are? Yes.
Do we face job discrimination? Yes.
Do many of us suffer from mental health issues like depression for such rejection and hate? Yes.
Do we still feel we have to hide or NEED to hide who we are always or sometimes given a situation, job, place, environment, etc? Yes.
People, churches, and government still debate our moral and legal ‘legitimacy’ and act accordingly.
Other than those things I would say we are not victims though.
RadicalRealist: I basically agree with you, my post was trying to say we are all victims in one way or another, and gave my example. However I struggle with christian/atheists working side by side.
Maybe it is my issue to get over, or maybe I’ve been lucky in two of my top issues coinciding with each other: The elimination of religion, and full equality under the law for myself and family (I’m sure nobody cares, but my third and final issue is direct wine shipping, and we WON IN MASS two weeks ago!!!!!!!!!!!!).
I’ve hated religion long before I realized how much it hates me. Dedicating my political energy to ending religion’s death grip on our society finds me fighting the anti-marriage crowd with even more zeal since it is my marriage they are against.
How can athiests march with christians as in your King example? I struggle to keep my mouth shut in the company of christians. Maybe I’m just too sarcastic to take them seriously, but I find myself thinking “Do they really believe in talking snakes?…can I listen to anything they say without laughing at their lack of intellect?”
I just have trouble taking people seriously who reject evolution, reject science and in their ignorance actually have the hubris to say they are smarter than the scientists who have figured this stuff out. How can they reject FACTS and then have anything good to offer society?
I feel lucky my fight against religion and my fight for equality keeps my enemies on the same team.
And it doesn’t matter how we win, we will and it will feel good. If we get rid of tax exemption for evil churches that aim to brainwash our children and stop their intellectual development, we’ll gain equality as the churches will die a long hard starvation.
If on the other hand we win full equality under the law, it will certainly come along with pointing out to the religious bigots how pointless their work has been, and that will help us take away their tax exempt status as they will lose members.
And I’m sorry to those of you who want to say not all religion is bad. That is not true. All religion is bad. It teaches us to work towards another, unknown (and nonexistent) second life, throwing away this one. In one case (Roman Catholicism) it even teaches that you can sin all you want (and in fact you can’t not sin) but you have to confess. So they are giving a free pass to do bad. Scary. And don’t be succomed to the milder religions that say you are welcome, and some even work for our equality. Read their books, they are not on our side. Those are examples of particular people getting “religion”..and it is causing schisms as we speak.
So, no, I can’t always live up to your ideal of standing with our enemies when they are with us. Maybe I should, but I can’t. I suspect if it wasn’t brainwashed lobotomy patients that you’re asking me to stand up with, I could be more tolerant.
I do not think it is possible to be black and racist in America at the same time. A bigot yes, racist - no. Racist is another thing - a mind thing that requires a certain amount of power over someone. Everyone -All victims? -No. No, no. Don’t do that to people. Happy people are not victims - usually. It is how you take an unfortunate circumstance that makes you a victim.
The irony in the comments is so thick, you need cowboy boots to get through it.
“You disgust me” is written one minute before “I want acceptance.”
You won’t get full equality until you give full equality. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
OMG–THANK YOU for this response. BRILLIANTLY and PERFECTLY put.
It doesn’t matter how many reasonable sentences surround an unreasonable point, it’s still unreasonable. I’d like to preface my remarks. I did read it carefully, and if you have a point at all, you are distinguishing real victimhood from not real victimhood; real victims from not real–especially highlighted by that rhetorical question in the eighth or ninth paragraph.
So the “point” here seems to be that because, for example, I wasn’t kicked out of my house at 12 for being gay, forced into a life of survival sex and exploitation to live, and haven’t lost jobs or been spit at or beaten up (this, I have actually), I’m not a real victim. Phew! Thank you, James, for clarifying what “real victimization” is as opposed to “fake victimization,” or inconsenquential victimization borne of bigotry. (And I guess those among us who were murdered are the REALLY REALLY REAL victims, huh?) So we can also establish a hierarchy of victimization from this, too. Those who were physically assaulted are the real victims as opposed to those who were verbally harassed to the point of attempted suicide.
I was really worried for a second there that the homophobic violence I have experienced in my personal life was genuine–though certainly not as severe as others. Thank you, James, because now I know that it’s not…and that for people like me, there is no REAL lgbt rights struggle, and we are REALLY treated as equally as any heterosexual…that heterosexual privilege is something we enjoy for some reason because, hey, I haven’t been murdered yet!
Ya know, I know many people who have had similar existences to the the nightmares I just described, and comparatively, I haven’t been victimized to that extent because of sexual orientation (and this is a valid point). Am I grateful to the point of being complacent about lgbt rights? Of course not. Those stories and those people serve to remind me that homophobic bigotry is a toxic curse that plagues every homosexual in the united states, who experience it to varying degrees along a spectrum. Though of course we differ in many ways, and particularly the expression of sexism and homophobia, I am galvanized by the commonality of a type of oppression we all share in, and can empathize with. Acknowledging this doesn’t “minimize” or disregard the spectrum of injustices we have experienced for the same reason, but rallies us to a common cause, and is the only hope we have for a politically and socially viable movement to gain our equality. And no one is playing the who’s a bigger victim game by acknowledging it, either, because who could possibly disagree that some have had a tougher time because they are homosexual than others? No one! But we need people who realize that it all matters, no matter how seemingly insignificant, or “unreal” or large. That an injustice somewhere is an injustice everywhere.
But thank you again, james, for reminding me who we’re REALLY fighting against: ourselves.
Geez,
Keep dragging your crosses around.
I was teased in High School for wearing tight pants. They didn’t call me gay, but they called me other nicknames (eternal hardon was my favorite).
Long hair, short hair, stripey pants, fat, sloppy eater, anorexic, short, tall, the list of discrimination goes on and on.
A few months ago I fired someone because they didn’t fix their car fast enough.
Stop acting like you are Jesus dragging around a cross in fear that just around the next corner you will be shot and quartered.
News flash: People in Mumbai were murdered because they were in front of the gun, not because they were this hyphen or that hyphen.
Are you so SELF-absorbed not to get that point?
Perspective.
Go out to Duane-Reade or Kroger and buy some if you don’t have any.
Every person on this planet is discriminated against for every reason there is to be discriminated against.
The difference is Ghandi didn’t complain and whine - he just DID.
Martin Luther King didn’t throw a tantrum, he organized and he marched. And when he marched he didn’t sling epithets like they were candy.
Stop coming across like so many spoiled brats and organize. With positive messages.
Or sit at home drinking your appletini’s throwing around insults on the Internet.
Gee whiz golly, wonder which would get you what you want faster?
As usual, jeff’s all dressed up with nowhere to go. But he goes nowhere with such abandon…gotta love it. I’m not going to take your bait, though, honey. But don’t fret, I’m sure someone out there would love to chase down your nonsequiturs. You have yourself a happy new year.
Be carefull y’all.
You may be come the very thing you despise.