Subscribe to Breaking NewsWithers: Why no race blame game after the Maine loss?
A 365Gay history lesson: last year before the Proposition 8 vote, I wished it failed because I knew a few would jump on the “black people are such homophobes” line. Unfortunately Golden State citizens voted against marriage equality and that tired memo got a lot of play here and elsewhere. Research the site and read the comments. They ranged from folk informing me how “my brothers and sisters” screwed over the LGBT community to suggestions it would be a good idea for gays to discriminate against blacks in retaliation. Look at the stuff if you want.
On this week’s election night, was listening to WNYC, and Nate Silver was being interviewed. I have no issues with Silver, link to 538 all all the time and think he adds to the political discourse. It was early in the night and he was asked to give thoughts on what would happen in Maine. He noted the dearth of an African-American population in the state and said gay marriage would make it. A strange comment coming from a guy who threw needed cold water on those who decided to blame the small California black population for the Prop 8 defeat.
Well as we all know marriage rights did not make it in the Pine Tree State and to steal from one of Ta-Nehisi Coates’ readers here is the question for the day:
“Why are posters here, and the media generally, ignoring the fact that these results were driven by Maine’s overwhelming number of black churches?”
For those who don’t get it, the question is rhetorical and ironical.
Before a few of you throw up, let’s get the obvious out of the way. Homophobia, is a problem, no matter where it comes from. Too many blacks adopt a “don’t ask, don’t tell” policy when it comes to sexuality. Oh we will groove to the music of Luther Vandross, and wonder out loud why he never found himself a wife. Or we will clap our hands in joyous celebration at the music on church Sunday but go silent when it’s announced the choir director is sick with a “blood disease.”
These realities of black-American life cannot, and should not be ignored; however, too many of us blithely support a narrative where homophobia is somehow purer in black and brown communities. Yes we have California, but there is also Washington, DC, and those who leaned on race to explain Prop 8 have been strangely silent on the DC City Council.
From Maine to California, many black, brown, and white faces will gladly vote against gay marriage. If there is anything that crosses the racial divide it’s bigotry for lesbians and gays.
Onward to marriage equality.
Cheers, Joe Mustich, Justice of the Peace,
Washington, Connecticut, USA.
Good question Withers, thanks for asking it.
This was a good point and needed to be said. Going forward we need to think about what really drives votes on gay issues- age. Young people do not vote in off year elections and we got killed in Maine because older folks- en masse- cannot get themselves to marriage. Contrast that with Washington, where people voted for us.
JC Said: “I won’t provide you with my opinion of the issue at hand, but I did want to let you know that I find it insulting when you suggest that people are “throwing up” when they voice disagreement or contempt for something you write. I’ve noticed that you include this literary technique in many of your posts. It is a nasty habit that is degrading to your readers.”
Very well said, JC – and this is the problem with Withers. If anyone disagrees with him they are, apparently, either vomiting, whining, having some kind of seizure on their keyboard, or they simply lack the intelligence to understand what he wrote. In the world of James Withers, it seems, it is completely impossible for an intelligent, thinking person to disagree with him and do so calmly or eloquently.
And the fact is, if you do disagree with him he won’t discuss, debate or even properly respond. He’ll stamp his feet and reply in the same way as he has to Dr. Ian with comments like “I wish you would pay more attention” and “…you are not a careful reader”.
The real problem lies in the fact that Mr Withers is an intellectual lightweight. You only have to look at his style of writing, consider his rather shallow analysis of any given situation, and look at the way he treats people who disagree with him (sometimes before they even do so) to understand that he is an embarrassment to this site. I will never understand how 365gay got so desperate that they could find no one better to join their staff than Mr Withers.
That said, he does make a rather cack-handed point in his article above. OK, so it’s not a point he came up with on his own, but one that is being widely discussed elsewhere on the Net as well, apparently, as in Maine itself. Still, credit to him for recognizing there’s a significant issue here.
There is a correlation between homophobia and race. Black people do tend to be more homophobic. Indeed, there is likely to be a higher rate of homophobia in any ethnic minority community than in the white community. Meanwhile, the whites tend to either rush towards liberalism, either because they genuinely support equality or feel it’s trendy to do so while looking down their nose at their latino housekeeper and gay hairstylist, or they rush away from liberalism either because their religion tells them so or because they lack the intelligence to understand that different does not mean bad.
Bigotry comes in all shapes, sizes and colors. There are some things that make a person statistically more likely to be homophobic – the color of their skin, their age, and, of course, their religion. And on top of the homophobes we have another group of people – the apathetic – those who simply don’t give a shit about gay rights.
When it comes down to it, there’s no point blaming one religion, one skin color, one demographic for the situation in Maine. When it comes down to it there were simply more homophobes and apathetic people than there were those prepared to stand up for gay rights. And people on both sides came in all shapes, sizes and colors.
One of our challenges as a GLBT community is to figure out how to productively engage people of faith and bring a broader cross section of folks to the tables of discussion.
We have to stop calling fundamentalist Christians evangelicals and vice versa.
There are many progressive evangelicals (such as myself).
Civil discourse will further our agenda of equality for all people.
This problem should not be blamed on any one particular minority group. The real problem is that each individual group does not stand behind the others in their time of need. We are all willing to speak up and act when it affects ourselves, but where are we all when the other guy is being affected? The bottom line is that all minority and discriminated groups must band together as one unified body. If in this group we were to add all of those who simply believe discrimination is wrong towards anyone, we have now created a force that will get things done. Stand up for the next guy NOW or eventually there will no one left to stand up for YOU! Let’s spread the word and do what is right! ACT NOW!!!
This is column #487 regarding racism and homophobia and still, Withers, you have yet to offer any kind of analysis of your own or answer a relatively simple question that I and others have asked: what would you as a black man say to me as a white one about racism and homophobia? This has nothing to do with careful reading; I read things several times before commenting on them. Yeah, I definitely agree with you and so many other posters about homophobia not really knowing any demographic boundaries, so why then continue to bring up racism without actually discussing it? What are you hoping to achieve by constantly posing questions without making any attempts to answer them yourself, and then bashing those who comment on your columns as (to paraphrase part of Isaac’s post) “vomiting, whining, having some kind of seizure on their keyboard, or simply lacking the intelligence to understand what you wrote”? Go ahead and stoke the racism/homophobia fire, but don’t act surprised when your readers push back at your lack of actual involvement in the discussion.
Yhitzak,
Wait a minute. Wait a minute. My comment about careful reading was directed at someone who said this:
“Quite a few of your editorials imply that we as a community need to turn down the heat from Obama.”
Sorry but if someone writes that after all the stuff I’ve said about the president, then I’m going suggest a more careful look at the record. I have no issue with people not liking anything I write, but if you are going to make stuff up I’m going to call ya out.
As for your question, I would say nothing to you as a black man about racism. As a human being I would say the following:
1) oppression has never made people more atuned to the sufferings of others.
2) this dream of “oppressed peoples” rising up together is just that, a dream.
3) it is time for the LGBT “community” to accept that we are not some happy family with similiar goals. We are at best fractured (no problem with that really), and maybe it’s time to work on what we can together and go our seperate ways.
Those are my three answers to your question.
Sincerely,
James
I mostly agree with the article, but not with the tone or with the responses you have posted in answer to the comments.
In the first place, I think a lot of people who have been oppressed do develop a sensitivity to the struggles of others. I like to think that that is one of the fortunate consequences of my being a homosexual. I think I am more empathetic to those who suffer discrimination on the base of factors such as disability or race or class. I realize that not all people learn from their challenges, and it saddens me when I see Black people who are homophobic or Jewish people who are racist or gay people who are intolerant of people who are different from themselves.
I also somewhat disagree with your trumpeting of the Washington, D. C. developments. It is true that we need to be very grateful for the support of many in the Black community for marriage equality. On the other hand, it is also true that the reason we hope that there will not be a referendum on marriage equality in the district is because we do not trust the majority Black population to vote in favor of same-sex marriage. (And, of course, we do not think that any minority’s rights should be subject to veto by a majority, whether that majority be White or Black.) It would be a major setback for marriage equality if we lost a referendum in the District, and it would also lead to an ugly blame game.
In any case, you are right. Black homophobia is not responsible for the defeat in Maine, nor was it responsible for the defeat in California, or the other elections that we have lost.
James Wither Said: “Sorry but if someone writes that after all the stuff I’ve said about the president, then I’m going suggest a more careful look at the record. I have no issue with people not liking anything I write, but if you are going to make stuff up I’m going to call ya out.”
Mr Withers, have you ever considered the possibility that these “misunderstandings” arise because you’re simply not that good a writer? Perhaps if you were a better communicator then people would be better at understanding what your position is.
Certainly you have said that the gay community should keep the pressure on Obama, but at the same time you have defended him repeatedly and every time he has made a token gesture you’ve been the first to sing his praises. Frankly, any criticism you’ve made of the man has been thoroughly undermined by your tendency to overlook those problems whenever he throws you a bone. I’m not going to say that because you’re black and he’s black (or half-black as some people on here are fond of pointing out) that this is blind devotion because of race, but I have read what you’ve said in the past and if you are not an Obama supporter then you’re doing a damn good impression of one.
If you support him, good for you. He may not have delivered on all of his promises to the gay community yet, but if you set aside the gay rights issues he is a fine President, and frankly there’s still time for him to keep each and every one of his promises. Don’t be ashamed of supporting the man – but if you are not a fan then please DO be ashamed of yourself, for you are truly a poor communicator if you intended to demonstrate your scorn, derision or even apathy towards the man.
Credit where credit is due, though. In the past I have said that I have only seen you comment when responding, in a thoroughly patronizing manner, to criticisms directed at you personally. While you did respond to a criticism Yhitzak made, you also responded to a question he posed and quite frankly I think you should delete your article above and replace it with the answer you gave. It is the most insightful thing I’ve ever seen from you on this site, and I applaud your words whole-heartedly.
The black community will not support or even understand the gay community’s plight simply because we are both people who are/have been oppressed – we have a battle to win their hearts and minds if we want their support, and frankly the easier battle will be convincing the majority white community to give us our rights.
And yes, we want different things. There are some in the gay community who are even opposed to gay marriage, believe it or not. Beyond that, I have found limited understanding on the part of lesbian and gay people towards the transgender community, and yet they’re lumped in with us as part of the whole LGBT crowd. Honestly, I have seen as much, if not more, prejudice from the gay community directed towards transgender people as I have from the straight community.
And then there are the individual differences, which are too many and varied to go into. We all know what oppression looks like and we all know it’s wrong. We all have our own idea of the sort of world we want to live in, and some in the gay community even know what it will take to make the changes necessary to get there.
But then, that’s really the whole point we’ve been trying to make to the rest of the world, isn’t it? We are a diverse community. We are a community of very different people of all ages, races, religions, all with different goals and ambitions. The gay community is a reflection of wider society. Hell, we even have bigots in our own camp! To suggest that the entire gay community can unite as one to fight for a common cause is as ridiculous as someone suggesting the entire straight community do the same. We are simply too diverse.
Not everyone can be born black, but anyone CAN be born gay. That is our greatest strength, and also our greatest weakness.
Isaac,
“Mr Withers, have you ever considered the possibility that these “misunderstandings” arise because you’re simply not that good a writer? Perhaps if you were a better communicator then people would be better at understanding what your position is.”
I’m not debating my writing skills.
Or if I’m an intellectual lightweight. Seems silly and pointless. I stand by everything written. It can stand, or fail, on its own minus a defense from me.
As for my answers to Yhitzak , those points have been repeated by me ever since I started writing here from way back when we were VisibleVote. Those answers are not new.
Thanks for the comments.
Sincerely,
James
Mr Withers, I really didn’t expect you to debate those points. They are my own personal opinion based on what I’ve seen of your writing. It is also my opinion that amidst the drivel and poorly communicated points are occasional flashes of brilliance, and your assessment of the gay community and the black community’s attitude towards gay oppression are spot on. Now, I know that you say these are points you’ve made before, but I’ve never seen you do so. Perhaps if you did, and others listened, more progress could be made in the quest for gay rights and equality.
We are not going to win the battle by attempting to unite on every issue. We are not going to win the battle by crowing about how other minorities should understand our plight and support us. In theory we should all be united. In theory minorities should be sympathetic. In practice we want different things and bigotry is not unique to the majority.
You and I are, in many ways, as different as any two people can be. The only real similarities between us are that we are both male and we are both homosexual. Does that make you and I the same? No – and the only people who think that way are the bigots we’re fighting against. Does our common gender and sexuality mean that we should be friends? Brothers? Hell no – all it means is that we share some similar goals.
The gay community needs to wake up to itself and stop all the in-fighting, accept that even though we are lumped together into one awkward group we are all different people with different ideas and different goals.
I see people posting on here about how Christians are the enemy and it makes me sick. I see people posting on here about how straight people can never understand us and it saddens me. I see people posting on here as though gay marriage is the ultimate goal, our prize for all our struggles, and it enrages me.
If the gay community were truly united, if we truly shared a bond, our first goal would not be legalized same sex marriage in America, but rather to end the persecution of our “brothers” and “sisters” around the world where homosexuality is illegal, where being gay can see you imprisoned or even executed. The gay community itself is a myth. We are ordinary people with different goals, different outlooks, who simply happen to be spat upon by the same bigots.
Gay men and women need to work together to achieve common goals, but any notion of kinship or brotherhood is an illusion. No, worse, it’s a delusion, and in spite of our differences I am glad that you also understand that.
James:
Don’t worry about the critics on this blog. You can be kind of a tool with all of your black homophobia apologetics, but you seem like a nice enough guy. And you really can mix it up. So keep it coming, and the more controversial, the better. And your writing is great. If people can’t do a little deduction and figure out what you are saying with fair approximation, then fuck them. They CAN understand, and a little stream of consciousness is healthy for them; it exercises their zombified right brain, which can’t see that Obama is fucking them hard with no cash up front. Let them bitch. It is all part of the fun. And I see what they are writing. Many of them are apologists for the HRC gay elite. So they are assholes anyway.
P.S. Change your profile picture. You look like a deer in oncoming traffic. Let’s see more leg.
Facebook User Said: “If people can’t do a little deduction and figure out what you are saying with fair approximation, then fuck them.”
FU, if someone is in a (presumably) paid and official position on a news blog, it is hardly unreasonable to expect them to be able to write well. If they are writing well then their reader’s brainpower need not be directed towards trying to work out what the hell they’re going on about, but rather towards considering the arguments they are presenting.
I have absolutely no doubt that Mr Withers is a great guy. He is witty, deals with criticism, for the most part, in a polite and cheerful manner, and there can be little doubt that his heart is in the right place. However, he is also a poor communicator who uses recycled sentiments and arguments while still frequently managing to avoid making an actual point.
It is good to know that he has at least one fan, though.
I was wondering when someone was going to bring up the obvious coming out of Maine… thanks Mr. Withers.