“You cover your cock out of decency, not because your ashamed of it. Discretion and taste isnt hiding. Im done playing word games simply to explain the novel concept of taste and modesty to what I assume is an adult.”

John,

The sad thing is that essentially we agree. I absolutely feel that some of the outfits worn by people on gay pride parades go beyond my personal definition of decency. I would not consider wearing them and would discourage any of my friends from doing so. My point is solely that neither you nor I have the right to tell anyone that they should or should not attend such parades, neither you nor I have the right to dictate how people can show pride in their lifestyle, and if the bigots choose to look at the more extreme elements in our community and use them to justify their bigotry there’s not a damn thing we can do about it.

Perhaps seeing these people does allow some members of society to justify their hatred and sleep more soundly at night, but if it were not for such people that hatred wouldn’t disappear. Robert said:

“We wouldn’t have had the struggle we have had – had we not paraded around in the streets in such a shameful manner.”

And I strongly object to this. You said:

“The queer community would find it has a lot more in common with hetero America if queers would just have the balls to stand up and call a pervert a pervert.”

And I strongly disagree with this too. How does someone wearing an outrageous or revealing outfit make them a pervert? And how can anyone seriously suggest that the extreme elements in the gay community are the reason our struggle has been as hard as it has been?

Get real.

To the Religious Right we are all perverts. We are all abominations simply because we exist. All the people you condemn are doing is saying “call me a pervert and I’ll wear it as a badge of honour”.

I don’t doubt that such behaviour makes it easier for some to justify their hatred, but it is not the cause of it and it will not go away if we all start “acting respectable”. And frankly, if sacrificing individual freedom is the price we have to pay for equality, the price is too damn high.

As you’ve said that’s all you have to say on the matter, I shall also consider this my last word. Points made, nothing either of us say will change the others mind and any further argument will only serve to alienate those people who might be persuaded by our opinions. Thank you for an intelligent discussion, and for not resorting to the same petty behaviour as others have.

You cover your cock out of decency, not because your ashamed of it. Discretion and taste isnt hiding. Im done playing word games simply to explain the novel concept of taste and modesty to what I assume is an adult.

Im reminded of a relative who believes flirting is justified because her husband does it. What no one mentions is that she would go mad if he stopped and forced her to define her own standards without blaming someone elses conduct.

Do yourself a favor and round up the nudists and go support family and dignified military service in the buff to express who you are and your right to express your pride. Do it in the name of gay pride, and swing over by NAMBLA while your at it. I’m sure theyll appreciate your ability to use gay pride to excuse any paraphilias and express it however you like. Its hardly a fetish, but you might enjoy the challenge.

And dont be ashamed. Theres no sense in starting now. Stand up for nudists and demand they be allowed to express themselves. Fight as fiercely for them as you are for your own assertion that all of us are misguided and the term taste is invalid in matters of gay pride.

And above all, show your warts.

Thank you for engaging the topic. Consider not being so hard on Yhitzak . I dont like being called “sweetie”, but unlike a local editorialist, I dont disqualify people from discussion based on the words they use.

…

In other news, Id like anyone, perhaps James or another, to reflect on the miserably small turn out at the Fenway protests last night, why people protest wearing smiles, and whats to be construed from the fact that for all the bluster about cutting off the DNC financially, they actually managed to raise a quarter million more than last year to total a net of 1 million dollars. This does not bode well. I’m actually a little puzzled that I mentioned it earlier on this “news?” site before the site did.

Anyone at all? What am I to make of this?

“People remove warts.”

Oh I know, sweetie, but in this context removing warts would equate to genocide, and I’m sure you’re not endorsing that. I expect what you meant to say is that people conceal warts, because that’s basically what you’re advocating, and my argument remains – why the hell should they? Why should wart-ridden heterosexual society not accept the wart-ridden homosexual society? Heterosexual society has its dark side, its flamboyant side, its sexually liberated side, its extreme side, so why should the homosexual community not be entitled to the same? Why should heterosexuals be allowed to get away with looking at one or two of us and using those people as an excuse for dismissing all of us?

The answer is not to hide away the parts of the gay community that you, and the heterosexual community, are not entirely comfortable with. The answer is to stand tall and proud and say “this is us – accept us”. After all, we are not looking for the heterosexual community to endorse our individual lifestyles, but rather for them to accept that we have the same right to choose our own path that they do.

Yhitzak Said:

“So if homosexuality IS normal, you condescending jackass…”

I stopped reading when I got to this point. First, there is no “if” about it. Homosexuality is normal and natural, and if you don’t believe that I genuinely pity you. Second, if you can’t carry on an intelligent discussion without calling a person you disagree with a “condescending jackass”, you have no place being involved in an intelligent discussion in the first place.

John and Robert know how to disagree and debate without name-calling. I will continue any further discussion with them. Anything you have to say can be addressed by others willing to indulge your bad behaviour. I’m not.

So if homosexuality IS normal, you condescending jackass, why is it an illusion that people like Robert, John, and myself want to put forth? Is it an illusory image that we, GLBT people, don’t ALL exhibit our private, sexual behaviors in a public venue? Is it an illusory image that not all gay people are fetishists? Is it an illusory image that we, GLBT people, have the ability to maintain monogamous relationships, build families, work jobs NOT in the sex industry, and function like anyone ELSE in the world? I don’t think that any of us are saying that there’s no place for fetishes in homosexuality (that’s almost funny), but we’re saying that there’s a difference between having a sexual preference and displaying your private inclinations in a public setting. And no, we’re not suggesting that it be illegal, we’re suggesting that our fellow adults actually behave like adults.

“My posts are tiresome and tediously long.”

No shit!

Regardless, I have read them. I simply disagree with you. You’ve quoted the odd saying, and cliche, here and there, so here’s one for you – “warts and all”. I don’t want society to embrace the gay community because it portrays a socially acceptable front. I want society to accept us warts and all. I want them to accept that we’re a diverse group, that some of us are no different to them, and some of our “freaks” are no different to their “freaks”. They accept us warts and all, or their acceptance is as much an illusion as the front you propose showing them.