Subscribe to Breaking NewsWithers: New Yorkers split by race on gay marriage
Let’s get the easy lifting out of the way: if you leave a comment about how I’m racist, look in the mirror please because the racist is you. If at any point in this rant you feel like I’m talking about all white gays and lesbians, then it’s time for glasses or a reading comprehension class. If you need to announce how I’m protecting my peeps, brothers and sisters, or whatever racial solidarity phrase you overheard in some club, suppress it. Please. Lastly no sharing what your black boyfriend, best friend, co-worker, neighbor and/or favorite singer told you about black American life (this also includes any theorizing about “the down-low”).
We reported yesterday about a Quinnipiac University poll that was promising for same-sex marriage advocates in New York. New York voters are evenly split on the topic of gay marriage. Unfortunately (look that word up) under closer inspection, the numbers show a troubling racial divide.
“Same-sex marriage? The state splits down the middle, with white voters in favor, black voters opposed and Hispanic voters just about even,” said Maurice Carroll, director of the Quinnipiac University Polling Institute.”
According to the numbers, white New Yorkers narrowly approve gay marriage 47 to 45 percent. Black voters are opposed 57 to 35 percent; Hispanics also stood in opposition but their numbers were not as drastic at 48 to 45.
If we focus solely on the black community, there is no way to prettify the numbers. It would have been interesting to see how those stats broke down with religion attendance, but even if religion is taken into account the figures mirror what I’ve been arguing for awhile: secular gays and religious blacks have very little to say to each other. Based on many of the comments left here, I have doubts about the chasm being breached but that’s neither here nor there.
How to reverse the trend among New York’s blacks? Don’t know really. Some black folk are not going to budge on this issue; however, these are the four arguments I would repeat over and over and over again: 1) gay marriage has zippo to do with the individual decisions made by churches and denominations, 2) the whole debate about marriage for same sex couples is part of the freedom march that began when this country was founded, 3) same sex marriage makes life easier for black gay and lesbian couples, and 4) there are issues in the black community (unemployment and high-school graduation rates) that are more critical to black folk than who is getting a certificate from Empire State city halls.
What won’t work is trying to sell the “you blacks have been oppressed and you need to understand my struggle” line. Oppression does not equal enlightenment about others. It just means you are at the bottom looking up.
Maybe it’s time the gay community shift it’s efforts away from itself and towards helping the other minorities. Becoming more visible at black charity events will help. Opening your gay wallet to help their causes can go a long way to helping yourself.
it makes me irate when i hear how bigoted blacks are against gays. im so tired of hearing about how you cant compare prejudices between gays and blacks – hatred is hatred – no matter what color it comes in
I think blacks need to be reminded that if it were not for whites, who were a majority, they would not be free from their slavery. It was whites who oppressed them, but whites who also set them free. So the next time blacks advocate to vote on gay equality and civil rights they must reflect on what if we were all voting today to abolish slavery… They could not have their freedom without white support.
It’s time to DISENGAGE from the religious debate. Everything has been said; the books have been written; if they dismiss John Boswell’s impeccable scholarship, they’re certainly not going to listen to us.
The liberal wings of the United Methodists, Episcopalians, ELCA Lutherans, More Light Presbyterians, Reform Jews, and virtually the entire UCC and Religious Society of Friends (unprogrammed Quakers) are well-known, as is MCC.
There are churches and synagogues where gay people are welcome. Forget the rest. If there isn’t one in your area, START ONE.
Poor, uneducated, religious blacks and whites share virtually the same degree of anti-gay bigotry. Acknowledge that and move on.
Personally, *I* don’t think *we’re* obligated to reach out to those who *hate* us. Turning the other cheek just gets one TWO sore cheeks. Suffering doesn’t ennoble; it just HURTS.
Leave them to their folly, and enjoy your life!
While it is true that many blacks are religious, the particular brand of religion by those black individuals should have made them LESS bigoted toward gays, not MORE bigoted. So their religion do not excuse the bigotry of some of them.
Many blacks practice liberation theology, and hear sermons about freedom, oppression, the majority harming the minority and how that is not God’s way. This belief system should have worked for the good, but instead it worked for evil. Why?
It is not education. These people are educated in church every Sunday that oppression is wrong, yet they STILL have the bigotry. The are hateful in larger numbers, and there is no reasonable argument that black bigotry toward gays is somehow more acceptable than white bigotry toward gays.
But what is racist is to generalize that because of the bigger numbers, one can say “blacks are more bigoted toward gays than whites.” That is wrong, because you can’t gauge the depth of feeling of an individual’s bigotry by these numbers.
Blacks appear to me to be much more inclined toward accepting gays once they know someone gay, or get educated. I don’t have evidence for this, it is just a bias I have. When I see blacks talk about gay people, they laugh and think it is funny, much more so than whites, who seem to take it more serious. That is just from personal experience. The black experience seems to have given blacks this broader perspective, a more mature perspective, on the balance of morals in life. So when more of them do come to our side, it will be genuine and forever.
I see now! I am so GLAD that the ones saying it is okay to be a bigot RIGHT BACK at someone is a GOOD thing! I would have NEVER thought of it myself, considering that bigotry breeds bigotry. Gosh! I will start busting heads right away guys!
Grow up.
During the civil rights movement, black people had their communities, family and churches to support them in their struggle. I believe Mr. Withers is frustrated and saddened by the fact that gay people, especially black gay people, suffer from this lack of much needed support.
Gay people in general do not have the religious, community or their family’s support on this issue, in most cases, many gay teenagers are thrown out of their home by their parents for no other reason than being gay.
We must learn to accept, that we and we alone are the sole caretakers and protectors of our community, and our demands that our birthright entitlement to our equal rights is way past due.
Black parents have never thrown their children out for being black, sadly that is the truth for children who are gay.
I believe we make our biggest mistakes by believing the myth, that if we educate people about us, we will gain our equality. People must want change within themselves first and foremost, and that is for their benefit not ours.
I don’t ever recall the Rev. Martin Luther King saying 48% of whites, are now for desegregation, or 53% of whites now favor equality for Negros.
I have never heard it said, that Abraham Lincoln took a poll to see how many people wanted to end slavery.
In my opinion, the way to equality is civil disobedience, protests, large and small, never stop being heard, employ constitutional law attorneys to challenge unequal laws that oppress and deny our full equality, and let it be known we are never giving up, giving in, or going away. We must inundate members of the house and senate and let them know without doubt, they will not get our support if they don’t take up the cause, this is just the beginning. I have faith in our community, we are more powerful than our enemy’s hate and ignorance. The father of the modern computer was a gay man Alan Turing, the greatest hero of WW 2, look him up, we are made of that stock and it’s time for us to stop looking for anyone’s approval, but to demand what we are entitled to, our birthright to full inclusion of equality.
I am getting tired of Wither’s columns, because he has just become an apologist for black bigotry. This is a website for all gay people, and I demand that on this website bigotry not be tolerated. It is outrageous that many blacks, who are capable of calling out bigotry against them, turn around and support bigotry in GREATER numbers than people who have never faced the sting of prejudice. If I see another column by Withers trying to spin this awful math, I am not coming to this website. I will go to a conservative website and see some approval of bigotry there.
Since the passage of Prop 8 – all of my liberal daydreaming about buying the world a Coke and singing in perfect harmony has come to an end.
Fact – Blacks are the most racist and violent people in the county of Los Angeles.
Fact – Blacks are the most violent people in the county of Los Angeles.
Fact – Blacks have every single educational opportunity as anyone else in the county of Los Angeles.
Fact – Black kids who study are told they are “acting white.”
Who cares what the black community thinks? It will reap what it sows. We shall overcome them. They will continue to suffer as long as they wish to suffer, so let them suffer.
I have no more patience for them – or for their apologists.
The way I see it:
Most blacks I know or come across in MY COMMUNITY (bite me if you see different in yours and think I am “racist”) is that most are actually SELFISH, they think NO ONE else could EVER be a victim like they are.
Another is that they still don’t think that they have BLACK PEOPLE that are GAY or LESBIAN. for real (getting your dick sucked at the local bookstore doesn’t count) or if you a woman and have a baby, but then hook up in a female/female relationship doesn’t count!
Those that are, are on the DOWN LOW and should stay that way. I literally had black people over the years say these sorta things.
I think that they think its “THEM” (black people) against “Us” White HOMOS! period! I really do. if you live in a state where there is a large majority of Blacks then you probably know what I mean, if you only have 10% then shut the freak up, cuz you don’t know!
My question to them (Straight blacks) would be: what type of white folk or people throughout history were to be on your side? Do they think that the Fred Phelps, Dobsons, Roberts and other White evangelical “christians” were the ones marching with MLK (Martin Luther King) for Freedom… COME ON!
So whatever you may think of my statements, I come from a family of various races (the rainbow) but I still stick to what I know and have encountered in my life.
One of the most recent was a guy who was my friend (black guy of mixed race “light skinned”) told me “O I didnt know you was a GAY” then he preceded to say “I am compelled to tell you what the bible says” how would he feel if I said, I didn’t know you was a Negro and I am compelled to tell you that my grandparents told me that the bible says I shouldn’t communicate with Negros, etc… I told him, to basically shut the F*&^K up, you aren’t compelled to do anything. He and I have an amicable relationship, although I doubt he will vote for LGBT equality in the voting booth!
So the point is their is a lot of hurt and IGNORANCE to go around! I am just saddened that somewhere along the path some cultures are forgetting that they have people of their own race, color, creed, religion, culture, etc. that are GAY too! There is NO such thing about our men are “too Macho” to be gay! that is just down right ignorant, someone needs to set them “straight” on the matter.
In closing I know you have all heard this, I have too many black sista girlfriends that say: “all our good men are in Jail or white girls are taking them” so if they REALLY feel that way, do you think they want to lose more to white men or other men in general? Probably not, so the sistas are hanging on to every lil brotha then can even if he don’t really want to be with women, I guess it makes them feel better if they FORCE him to be “staight” and this goes for Whites and Latinos and Asians too, I just hear it and see it more with my black brothers and sisters!
I say take off the kitten gloves. The black community is clearly bigotted and tribal. Black heroes are generally heroes for standing up for only black issues. Black intellectuals focus on largely black social issues. Black civil rights groups are outraged when someone is victimized–if they’re black. This is a cultural defect that we are encourageing by dancing around these issues. While our loved ones die alone in the hospitals, our children taken by backwoods judges, given separate but equal civil unions–at best, we cannot claim the term “civil rights?” This is bigotry and the black community nurtures it. I’ll trade riding in the back of the bus and facing the fire hoses for a marriage and security for my kids. Its time for some candor.
I believe the same is true for whites who discriminated against blacks during the Civil Rights beginnings. Poor and overly religious. I didn’t give them a pass for their bigotry. There is no free pass for hatred.
I am also confused how an oppressed people adopted the religion of their “owners” and continued to do so long after abolition. And that justifies being bigoted?
I will grant you that black people have had a horrible go of equality in America. The bias used against them is no different than the bias they are using against gay people.
I know poor and religious people who are pro-equality. Some things are just up to the individual. I am more apt to excuse poverty as an excuse than religion.
There are still way more white people than blacks in New York state though so if it doesn’t pass it has only marginally to do with racial divides. Numbers are numbers. If you add all the people who are against gay marriage it will not fall on black people. It will fall on all people. Statistics are interesting but truthfully a poll does not reflect the voting population.
There are many black people who are against it but will never vote. Hispanics also. If you only take likely voters or registered voters and it fails it will most likely be an equal defeat by all races and not just one over another.
I know many black people who are religious and very few who are openly against gays. Poorer people have less exposure to openly gay people so they have less to go by in decision making.
There is one African American who could make the biggest difference of all and he has chosen to state publicly that he is against gay marriage. That would be our President. He could impact both the poor and religious so if you want to point a finger at who can do the most and is doing the least you might want to visit Pennsylvania Avenue.When Sarah Palin quotes his stance on Gay marriage and Carrie Prejean uses it as her defense then why should we expect others to do any differently? I’ve been with my spouse longer than Barack and Michelle have been together. I also voted for him. It’s time for him to stand up for what is right.
New York stats seem similar to California’s exit polling numbers. The Black community had only their church when they had nothing else to sustain them.
Today the black community still endures the lasting results of slavery….economic devastation and inability to obtain a competitive education….which in turn creates more economic devastation…..bad self image from not being able to provide for themselves or their families.
When black clergy endorse and push anti-gay attitudes they are the voice being heard. It will likely take people like Rev Al Sharpton to bridge this divide. It is a very sad divide. Patients is key.
The only way to reverse the trend is through education. End the strangle-hold that religion has on the poor. It’s the only way to put an end to this kind of ignorance. It’s sad, really. When you think about it. The poor have little. How do they make themselves feel better about that: Pretending there’s something more. That they are above it all because they are ‘not of this world.’ Puhlease. At the end of the day you’re not of the world becuae you’re poor and foolish. Move beyond that and maybe, with education, experience, hope of something better that doesn’t involve jeebus and imaginary rewards…maybe then gay marriage won’t be a convenient target to make the feel better about their sad, crappy lives. And the first step: Education.
Montrealbrean mentioned coming from Detroit. I live in Cleveland (21 years as of today). The racial reality in Cleveland and Detroit is something that can’t be described as much as experienced. Both cities have lost a huge number of white residents and both cities are imploding economically. When you look at either one, you see poor, black, and not infrequently criminal. Racism and ignorance come from all sides and are directed at all sides. In Cleveland, when a neighborhood becomes even remotely integrated, you call all but start a timer for it turning into ghetto. Then you realize it’s not because of the concept of blacks moving into an all-white neighborhood, it’s whites whose experience (thanks to blockbusting in the 60s) is that you have to sell or move as soon as there’s any noticeable black presence. Whites also move out because they see the outer suburbs as more prestigious, so they become absentee landlords who do nothing to maintain their property or screen their tenants. The poor whites have long since moved out of city neighborhoods, so there’s nothing available to remind you that whites can be just as ghetto as blacks. Cleveland and Detroit have none of the history of a black middle class, or of historically black universities, that you see in Nashville or Atlanta. Finally, add in the completely failed public schools in both Cleveland and Detroit, and the limited historical emphasis on education (almost opposition to it) in cities where you didn’t need an education to make a good living in a mill or an assembly plant.
So that’s the outline of the daily experience. Living in it has taught me a lot about people. The consequences of it only make hostility and suspicion and dislike embed themselves further. Whites who assume all blacks are criminally inclined. Blacks who can seem suicidally tolerant of involvement in the criminal justice system. A ghetto mentality which includes viewing traffic laws as recommendations (turn signals are optional, don’t bother with car insurance, don’t pay attention to anybody else on the road)…it piles up on everybody. You can’t escape it unless you just move away, which is what’s happened–and the divide and its consequent problems only get worse and worse.
I’m disgusted by the way that whites in this city have perpetuated so many of the problems, have refused to use some of their resources to create a better place for all, and I’m disgusted by blacks who seem to think that being expected to conduct yourself without being loud, profane or borderline-criminal is a gesture of white oppression.
What’s this got to do with gays and with blacks who oppose us getting married? Being in a place like Cleveland can make it much easier to see the divide, and to see how people living in that divided, suspicious context get to a point where they’d rather screw themselves over than risk a better outcome by reaching out across the divide. We (Cleveland and Detroit) have arguably the most vicious and intractible racism in the US, and it’s not getting any better. Spending your days being wary and vigilant is exhausting, and sure as hell doesn’t leave you predisposed to consider another view of your own experience.
Gays will prevail on the marriage issue. In my city’s context, it’s black pastors who are our opposition–but it was a majority-black City Council that created our DP registry, and it was local black leader George Forbes who helped craft this measure, and he inspired the Call and Post (local black paper) to write an editorial which very strongly supported the DP registry AND marriage equality. We’re not alone, and just as we have str8 supporters, we have black supporters too. I know without doubt that there are many blacks who DO make a direct connection between allowing discrimination against gays and risking their own equality. This issue does a great job of showing why allowing your neighbor to be wronged can come right back on you. The reality of experience makes it much harder for either side to step into the other’s shoes, but it’s absolutely necessary.